stumped please help

[Elmo]

With it set at 10 BTDC it is right on spec. leave it there shut off the engine reconnect the spout start engine and drive it 5-10 miles and see how it does. it should be as good as before the problem started unless you have something else acting out.

 

[blue oval]

ok ill take it down the road and see how she does thanks....

 

[blue oval]

Well...went back out and on one of my plug wires the metal insert inside the wire had been short and hadn't been on the distributer good (lol) the wire was on good but the insert hadn't been on the prong. I checked all of the wires then and listened very very carefully for the click sound putting them back and took a phillips head screwdriver and pulled that connector back out and it clicked as well. Now due to this could that wire have messed up that plug? I had 3 codes p-0300, p-0303, p-0307 for misfires on 3 and 7 so tommorrow I'm going to be looking at this. After this I did fire it back up and without the spout it says steedy on 10 degrees with the spout it goes way on BTDC side and idles very rouch. I'll check tommorrow on your all comments before I start on it....by the time I wind down and take a shower I'm not going to get much sleep lol before work. Thanks

 

[miesk5]

yo,

A P0300 diagnostic code indicates a random or multiple misfire. If the last digit is a number other than zero, it corresponds to the cylinder number that is misfiring. A P0302 code, for example, would tell you cylinder number two is misfiring. Unfortunately, a P0300 doesn't tell you specifically which cylinder(s) is/are mis-firing, nor why.

Symptoms may include:

the engine may be harder to start

the engine may stumble / stumble, and/or hesitate

other symptoms may also be present

Causes

A code P0300 may mean that one or more of the following has happened:

Faulty spark plugs or wires

Faulty coil (pack)

Faulty oxygen sensor(s)

Faulty fuel injector(s)

Burned exhaust valve

Faulty catalytic converter(s)

Stuck/blocked EGR valve / passages

Faulty camshaft position sensor

Defective computer

Possible Solutions

If there are no symptoms, the simplest thing to do is to reset the code and see if it comes back.

If there are symptoms such as the engine is stumbling or hesitating, check all wiring and connectors that lead to the cylinders (i.e. spark plugs). Depending on how long the ignition components have been in the car, it may be a good idea to replace them as part of your regular maintenance schedule. I would suggest spark plugs, spark plug wires, distributor cap, and rotor (if applicable). Otherwise, check the coils (a.k.a. coil packs). In some cases, the catalytic converter has gone bad. If you smell rotten eggs in the exhaust, your cat converter needs to be replaced. I've also heard in other cases the problems were faulty fuel injectors.

Random misfires that jump around from one cylinder to another (read: P030x codes) also will set a P0300 code. The underlying cause is often a lean fuel condition, which may be due to a vacuum leak in the intake manifold or unmetered air getting past the airflow sensor, or an EGR valve that is stuck open.

 

[blue oval]

Since I have the base time of 10 degrees BTDC now I'm going to put the fan and shroud back. I did reset the codes but haven't drove it or anything to see if I can get the codes back just idle time. During Idle I do get a growling or umming sound out of the plastic intake tube that mounts on the radiator support occasionaly then it goes away, then comes back, etc. I'll start with pulling the plugs on 3 and 7 I guess.... to see what they look like even though they only have about 2hrs run time on them tommorrow. It just sucks that the new dist. fixed the firing up problem well I think it did, and gave me more. I'll repost as I move forward to see what it has planned for me. Thanks y'all

 

[blue oval]

Ok...Timing is 10 degrees, spout out its a steady 10 degree, spout in its no where near 10 degree at idle, rev. it, or anytime. Can I drive it down the road without the spout and see how it does? I drove down the road with the spout and it chokes the whole time unless I'm just barely giving it throttle, glad it's a flat road. Can the spout its self go bad? Wires look good....I would have to say about all the wires I look at look good and pretty clean. I just don't get it...mines the opposite spout out idles GREAT stays on 10 degrees spout in all to pieces. As for the number 3 and 7 misfires I pulled the plugs and they looked good, both was still on 44 gap, but I replaced them with new ones anyways and no changes. I figured I should probably drive it and see if I can get a code but I'm scared of not making it back. Could the dist. be bad? didn't have these problems before it, it just wouldn't fire up once in awhile. Now it fires up everytime, but dont run good. I re-tested the fuel pressure and its still good. Any suggestions?

 

[Elmo]

the spout is doing just what it is supposed to do. put the spout in and forgetit. double check the fireing order and be double sure the routing. in relpacing the dist did you take the plug wires off the cap ? When putting the cap and wires back in it is not uncommon to have accidently put a couple of wires on the wrong post, i have done it many times even after tring to be ever so dilligent to get them right. The noise comming from the air intake is probably the idle air bypass valve opening and closeing. How does the inside of the throttle body look, mainly right around the butterfly plates ? Is it clean or does it have a layer of gunk on it ?-infront of and behind the butterflys. this could affect the idle quality any time i have the intake hoses off i like to "brush its teeth", take an old toothbrush and some break cleaner or carb/choke cleaner with the truck off hold the throttle wide open spray it down and scrub with the brush rinse it with a little more cleaner start the engine rev it up a bit two or three times to clear out the cleaner then with hoses off engine running spray into the throttle opening and at the same time rev the engine the harder you spray the harder you have to rev it in order to keep it running. do this 4-5 times then let it idle and mist the throttle opening for a few seconds this in my own opinion allows the cleaner to be drawn theough the idle air bypass valve therefore cleaning it as well. doing this can surprisingly have a dramatic and positive affect on the idle quality.

 

[miesk5]

yo,

Spark Plug Wire Routing for '94-up 5.0L & all 5.8L

ISSUE: Engine miss, spark knock, buck/***** surge and other driveability concerns may be caused by induction crossfire. This occurs because of improperly routed spark plug wires.

ACTION: If spark plug replacement is performed, the correct firing order and spark plug wire routing is essential to prevent the possibility of induction crossfire between cylinders. Refer to the following procedures for inspection of the spark plug wire routing and firing order. Properly reroute the spark plug wires if required.

Whenever a high-tension ignition wire is removed from a spark plug, the distributor cap, or the coil to perform a maintenance operation, Silicone Dielectric Compound must be applied to the boot before reconnection. Using a small clean screwdriver, apply a thin layer of Silicone Dielectric Compound on the entire interior surface of the boot. Do not apply compound to metal terminals.

FIRING ORDER

The firing order for 1987-1993 5.0Ls is 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8. If #7 and #8, or #2 and #4 spark plug wires are routed next to each other at the separation bracket, an induction crossfire condition can occur.

The firing order for 1994 & UP 5.0Ls & all 5.8Ls is 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8. On these vehicles the #1 and #3, or #5 and #6 spark plug wires must be separated to eliminate the possibility of an induction crossfire.

To eliminate the possibility of the coil wire becoming disconnected, route the coil wire under the spark plug wires at the distributor cap.





diagram s by Tank at http://www.supermotors.net/clubs/superford/registry/media/299014

 

[Bully Bob]

WOW..!

This has to be a record post/thread.... I'm sure these guys will stick with you 'til you get it solved. (AMAZING HELP)

HOWEVER., I don't mean to be the barer of bad news but...

Blue Oval said;

"Could the (rebuilt) dist. be bad? didn't have these problems before it, it just wouldn't fire up once in awhile."

Where did you get this rebuilt. dizzy...?

I wonder about "new" parts these days., let alone "rebuilt." I recently put in a "new" stator fr. O'riellys (in my dizzy) & the reluctor rubbed on it. (apparently their mfg. specs were off) i.e. no clearance. It surprisingly ran fine but made a "wrrrrr" sound.

I put the old one back in & all's fine ("If it works......")

Point being., you may be correct in your concern about your dizzy swap...??

 

[miesk5]

yo BULLY BOB!

Exactly, but I figured that he should do the other tests first instead of pulling that distr..

And Cardone is known to Not automativall replace the PIP when "rebuilding"

I started a Defective Parts List here @ http://broncozone.com/topic/22216-starter-went-start-now-cant-stop/page__pid__116055#entry116055

Significant Excerpts:

From other Ford & Bronco Forums and info; there seems to be a large range of defective parts coming through the parts stores from other countries;

"...I recently had a problem with my PIP module in my distributor. I bought a Cardone from Auto Zone. I am now on the third replacement..."

by akojsp

1995 XLT

5.8

"...miesk I had problems with the AZ pick up on my 89 last year I ended up useing the old one that I replaced it with not a peep since..." by huggyb1972

"Took my distributor to a machine shop today to have the PIP sensor replaced (I don't have a press). What should have cost me maybe $20 in labor ended up costing me $65 (plus an extra $30 for a "Made in USA" sensor) because the Echlin part I got at NAPA was poorly made and wouldn't fit. I ended up with a Standard sensor (which is made by the same damn company!~this one just happened to be an oldie that was sitting on the shelf at the machinists)... I've noticed that a lot of the stuff at NAPA has been slowly converting over to Chi-Com junk. Echlin MP711"

"NON OEM Ford TFI modules dumping anywhere from right out of the box to maybe 3 months later... ( Sorsen comes to mind WAY too quickly )"

 

[blue oval]

You guys are truely awesome!!! I hate that I keep posting but you all are my only hope and my bronco is my only vehicle other than the wife's and u know how that is lol. I went out and looked at the wires adjusted a couple but still the same. My idle goes up and down and will sometimes bogg till you think it will quit but then it will go back up, it just seems like timing to me what very little I know about it. If you was one tooth off going back with the dist.could you set it to 10 degrees anyways and actually be out? I pulled the number one plug put my figure over the hole and found the compression stroke then I put a ***** driver down the plug hole and had my wife lol to tell me when it topped out (when it started back down I turned it back up some, she's sick and dont want to be out there). If she was right it would be a tooth off from the number one prong on the dist. Thanks

 

[Bully Bob]

You betcha' M5...the tests are priorty 1

BLUE..., You should use a long plastic straw instead of a screwdriver. (a mistake could jam that in there.., not good..!)

You can find that compression "puff" using the crank pully bolt & a socket wrench or a breaker bar. You can get the piston right at the top. (key OFF of course)

Then if the rotor isn't pointing at the #1 pole on the dizzy....simply moving/adj. the dizzy will get it there.

ALSO.., at this time, shining a flashlight down in there., the timing mark on the crank pully/harmonic balancer should be at "0" or real close to it.

--- if not., there is a timing issue & you'll have to start over.

One tooth off on the dizzy is adjustable....it's the timing chain that's NOT adjustable.

Speaking of which.., I don't know if that was mentioned but a failing timing chain can cause fits.

 

[blue oval]

Ok thanks bully bob I'll do that tommorrow and check the degree to see where it is.

 

[Bully Bob]

The "rule of thumb" timing check/set is;

--Top dead ctr. #1 piston on compression stroke

--Visually see that the timing mark is on "0"

--Install (or rotate) dizzy with rotor pointing at #1 plug wire on cap.

This is the point at which the fine tuning begins with a timing light, etc.

If the timing mark isn't on 0" at TDC comp. stroke.., there's likely a timing chain issue.

The dizzy is comfortable installed in the eng. with room to rotate a ways clock & counter-clock W/O bumping into things. There's no actual tooth-to-tooth exact placment. That's why it's made to rotate then lock down. A tooth one way or the other is made up for with this rotation. Rotation also sets the advance while fine tuning.

Note: Dizzy must be stabbed in all the way seated.! no gap at the base/lock down rim.

 

[blue oval]

Hey B.B went out today and set the piston to top dead or I thought top dead the mark was off by 2 degrees on the ADTC side so I adjusted it to the 0 degree mark thinking I might have been a little off determining TDC on #1, set the rotor button to #1 and it idled the best it has in two days thought I had it and took it down the road did alot better but still some pinging and some choking. Should I do it again and dont adjust that 2 degrees? Thinking of getting a crankshaft posiotion sensor too lol why not bought everything else its pretty dirty looking and cleaning the balancer off with grease lighting might have messed it up.

 

[Bully Bob]

I'm hardly the expert on the newer computer/sensor/positioner, etc. motors & electronics.

For the last 10 yrs., all my rigs have been "old school"

I would be suspicious of exact top dead ctr. & "0" on the timing mark NOT being right on....?

However., that may be OK....some of these other guys might be up on that.

Another test.., rotate the crank back-n-forth..... see how far you move the wrench B/4 the "rotor" moves. Shouldn't be a lot of play.

"Thinking of getting a crankshaft position sensor too"

This is prob. a good idea.... other guys would know that.

You can't do that TDC / timing mark test too many times. (should get the same reading/result ea. time)

ADDITION --"Should I do it again and don't adjust that 2 degrees?"

What I would try., is if TDC shows 2 deg. advanced... do the timing light thing., & move the dizzy to 8deg. with the spout off. (instead of 10deg.)

Pont being., that 2deg. is already in the mix. Setting it at 8 would actually be 10 .... then do the routine to put the spout back on.

This may help but I still think there's something else acting out here.

 

[miesk5]

yo,

Troubleshooting; "...Noise from inside the timing chain cover is a good indication that there is too much slack in the chain. Another way to spot excessive play in the timing chain is to remove the distributor cap and turn the crankshaft in one direction until the rotor moves, then turn it in the opposite direction until the rotor starts to turn the other way. If the crank has to be turned more than about half an inch to move the rotor, chances are the timing gears and chain need to be replaced...." read more

Source: by miesk5 at Ford Bronco Zone Forums http://broncozone.com/topic/20044-302-efi-stumbles-when-cruising/

by Ford:

Crankshaft Position Sensor; used on OBD-II; The crank sensor has nothing to do with the engine firing. This is just a monitor to help calculate if the engine has a misfire. The Distributor ignition systems utilize a dedicated misfire detection sensor.

The PCM calculates crankshaft rotational velocity for each cylinder from this crankshaft position signal. The

acceleration for each cylinder can then be calculated using successive velocity values. The changes in overall

engine rpm are removed by subtracting the median engine acceleration over a complete engine cycle. The

resulting deviant cylinder acceleration values are used in evaluating misfire in the “General Misfire Algorithm

Processing” section below.

The Misfire Detection Sensor is used with a TFI distributor system. The PIP signal generated by the distributor is

not accurate enough to detect misfires. Because of this, a dedicated misfire detection sensor is used along with a

crankshaft-mounted toothed wheel.

The following vehicles use the MFDS: 4.9L E and F-Series, 5.0L E, F-Series, and Explorer, 5.8L E, F-Series and

Bronco, 7.5L E and F-Series

Misfire Detection Sensor Check Operation:

DTCs, P0385 (MFDS)

Monitor execution, continuous

Monitor Sequence none

Sensors OK

Monitoring Duration < 5 seconds

 

[miesk5]

also;

Typical MFDS check entry conditions:

Entry Condition Minimum Maximum

Engine RPM for CKP, CMP 200 rpm

Typical MFDS check malfunction thresholds:

Time between MFDS edges: > 350 milliseconds

Ratio of current MFDS period to last two periods: < 0.75, > 1.75

 

[blue oval]

I'm going to get another dist. and see if that helps before I move on to something else, that way I will know if its something else acting up so I dont keep guessing at it. I did accidentally drive it with out the spout, thought it was on when it was in my pocket could this cause me harm. I'll try the new degree pattern before installing the new dist. thanks Miesk. One more thing when getting the compression stroke...does the exhaust stroke and the compression stroke both push air out of the hole? and if it does how do I tell which is which? It Idle's good, rev's good in the garage just dont run good on the road.

 

[Bully Bob]

"does the exhaust stroke and the compression stroke both push air out of the hole? and if it does how do I tell which is which?"

You might get a 'lil air as it pushes ex. gases out the ex. valve BUT nothing like the compression stroke..!!

On comp. stroke., BOTH valves are closed..the piston coming up., ...it will def. push your finger fr. the hole., & make a "WUSSH" noise.

BTW------- Where the heck RU...? Maybe someone on this board is near & can stop by & give you a hand....??? :-B