stumped please help

[blue oval]

Hello everyone

I have a 96 Ford bronco 5.8. My bronco on some days wont crank until 5-6 trys, and left me at work one day I could hear the fuel pump, next day fired right up, sometime it seems to die out going down the road and pick back up really fast like a hop, then most days cranks first try, drives like new. I have replaced the fuel filter, fuel pump, icm module, coil, check the egr valve vacuum, check fuel pressure at the rail it was within specs. and didnt loose any pressure over a 5min span. It doesnt throw any codes and always idles good and smooth when it is running. Could anyone please point me in a direction on what to check. I dont know what else to look for??? Thanks

 

[Krafty]

change your plugs, wires, rotor and cap.

 

[blue oval]

I'm going to try that Sat. I'll repost if it fixes it. Thanks

 

[Rons beast]

I had the same problem on my 96 5.0....the problem was the ground cable from the battery to the frame and engine.

If it's old change it, if it's corroded change it, if it looks bad, even kinda, change it. A bad ground causes alot of problems. Think about it. If anything electrical cannot get a good ground, it won't function properly. Oddly the ground is one thing that depending on temperature, weather conditions, etc. can be good or not good.

 

[Krafty]

my 93 f150, it would randomly die while driving, or run like a dog for a minute or two, and if it was really wet out it would not start at all, after alot of headaches of trying to chase after non existent coil and distributor pickup problems, I threw in a new set of plugs and it started right up and hasn't done it since. the final giveaway was I got a nasty shock from my sparkplug wires. which shouldn't happen unless you have cracked or faulty casings on your wires, or in my case the electrodes on the plugs were so worn, there was less resistance through the wire casing AND through my body then there was through the spark plug and engine block. ( 10, 000 volts hurts)

so lesson learned, don't be cheap, replace those plugs, whenever you are trying to chase down gremlins do the full monty, plugs wires, cap, rotor, air filter, fuel filter, and check for codes, even if your CEL isn't on your comp will store codes that can sometimes help point you in the right direction.

 

[Bully Bob]

Hi Blue..., Welcome..!!

Hmmmmm., I take a diff. approach., in that throwing parts, & then more parts may eventually solve something, but look at all that wasted $$ if only one thing was the issue.

MAINLY., I want to know exactly what the prob. was for future reference.

You can pull "1" plug & get an idea of tune & condition of plugs. (obviously, pulling all is a bit better) clean & re-install if they're good.

Faulty plug wires/dizzy cap will be "visable" in the dark of night.

NOT that one or more of these aren't the prob. anything is possible.

(the maint. history/mods of this veh. are unknown here)

Like Ron said., this has the "ear-markings" of an electrical/ignition issue. Apparently there's several ground connections on these rigs that must be "good" ..!

RU doing the code(s) tests correctly...?

 

[Krafty]

ill have to disagree with the one plug looks good they all might be good, in my experience I have found that it only takes one plug to cause slight misfires, to some serious running issues, case and point my 89 302 had 7 plugs in 100% mint shape, and one plug with the bottom melted right off.

my full montey approach only applies when you don't know the history of the vehicle or cant remember when one of those items has been checked or replaced. obviously if you put new plugs in 10 000 miles ago then just check, ect. your air filter is the most neglected part of any vehicle, every 3000 miles it should be checked and replaced if necessary.

 

[Bully Bob]

Another item to test is the "pick-up coil" or stator, down inside the dizzy.

(that's part of what replaced the points)

 

[Rons beast]

"some days it won't crank for 5 or 6 trys" is this the engine won't turn over, "crank" or it turns over and won't start/run "fire"

 

[miesk5]

yo,

No Start, but when Starting It Runs & No DTCs in a 96:

"...As far as the signals in/out for spark and fuel between the EEC-IV/V they are basicly the same. Yes I know there is a makeshift crankshaft positioner for misfire detection, but that is probably not the issue here. I looked some info on one of my Service cds to compare the EEC-IV and EEC-V signals. Both use the PIP, SPOUT and IDM signals. According to the manual the PCM uses the PIP signal to trigger the injectors. So I would suspect a possible missing PIP signal. I am not 100% clear what the IDM signal does. I did have one other thought around midnight last night: Both systems will shut off the injectors if the TPS signal indicates full throttle when in the Start mode. What if the OPs TPS was shorted? This would send the +5V reference signal directly through to the feedback signal. Easy check: disconnect the TPS, then try to start. Next I would start verifying the PIP and possibly the IDM signals are getting back to the PCM..."

MIESK5 NOTE; from Ford EVTM; The Control Module (PCM) runs the pump{s} for one second when it receives an ignition- on signal. It also runs the pumps as long as it receives a PIP signal from the Hall-effect devices, it continues pump operation even after the key is released from START. If the PIP signals fall below 120RPM, the control module cuts off the signal to the fuel pump relay. The pump will also run when the terminals of the fuel pump test connector are jumped. the Control module signals the pump when it receives a CRANK signal, and when the Control module gets PIP signals that the engine is running. the pump does not run if the PIP indicates the engine is not running even with ignition ON {except for that first one second}.

Source: by rla2005 (Randy)

Hall Effect is also called Profile Ignition Pick-up (PIP) Signal, Stator, RPM

Ignition Control Module (ICM) Location pics (near driver's side hood hinge) & info in a 96 5.8; "...Spout connector wires go into ignition module wiring connector..."

Source: by DNBELOWBRONCO (Kevin, Labor of Love) at Ignition Control Module (ICM) Location pics (near driver's side hood hinge) & info in a 96 5.8; "...Spout connector wires go into ignition module wiring connector..."

one pic for example;



Source: by DNBELOWBRONCO (Kevin, Labor of Love) at SuperMotors.net

Note that Kevin has an aftermarket gray ICM; he later went w/ a Ford Motorcraft Black ICM due to aftermarket crap quality. You should have a BLACK Fender Mounted Ignition Control Module (ICM)

Testing, Overview & Diagrams, Black, Computer Controlled Dwell (CCD), Fender Mounted Ignition Control Module (ICM) & Profile Ignition Pick-up (PIP) Signal; SEE site for diagrams Source: by easyautodiagnostics.com

If PIP tests bad (best tested when eng is @ norm op temp), most replace entire distributor w/Ford reman unit.

====

Here is the Ford on-line parts site; http://www.fordparts.com

for 96 5.8:

12A112 (DU-50) Distributor Stator

5.8L; with remote TFI module $84.05

12A297 (DY-533) Ignition Control Module 5.8L; Remote mounted TFI module. Does not include aluminum heat sink. $163.09

You'll see an Image for the parts, but ever since a bean counter @ Ford decided the site should be "upgraded", they lost a lot of info and messed-up the images; they show the ICM as being attached to the distributor, which is incorrect for your 96 5.8; although the part description does mention it is Remote mounted

I get my Ford Ignition & some other parts via AMAZON; they are VG at delvy and esp pricing; I bought a $150.00 DPFE Sensor for $50.00 with free shipping and no sales tax

our Sponsor here, Jeff's Bronco Graveyard does not have the PIP or ICM, but Jeff at the Bronco Graveyard has offered a 2% discount to members of The BroncoZone for on line orders. To get your discount, enter the discount code BZMEMBER. Also you must include your BroncoZone User Name with the order.

http://broncograveyard.com

I'll post this now in case Comcast decides to shut cable off again (I lost one reply with all this info 20 mins ago)

 

[miesk5]

yo,

Part 2

Hall Effect (Profile Ignition Pick-up (PIP) Signal, Stator, RPM) Replacement Procedure & Video

by Joel5.0 at http://sbftech.com/index.php?topic=28934.0

Hall Effect (Profile Ignition Pick-up (PIP) Signal, Stator, RPM) Testing & Diagnosis, Part One by Wells

http://www.wellsve.com/sft503/counterp_v8_i2_2004.pdf

excerpt; "The customer complained that the engine either would not start or would crank for a very long time

before starting, always following a hot soak of at least 10 minutes. If the vehicle was allowed to sit long enough for the engine to cool down completely, it would always restart. Once the engine did start, it never die..."

Part Two by Wells, see page 3

http://www.wellsve.com/sft503/counterp_v8_i3_2004.pdf

 

[blue oval]

Just an update. I changed out the spark plugs (44 gap), wires, distribulater cap, rotor button. The plugs was the orginal and was awful, some gapped at 60 some at 80 dont know how it ran as good as it did. It cranked right up after words, sounds great and drove so much better, it just had a smoother flow. Today grrrrrr had to turn it over 3 times to fire. I pulled it back in and looked at the grounds again they both looked good but I decided to take them both off and really look them over and brush em off, when I found the ground wire from the engine to the fire wall and a very little spot on it where I could see the wire. So lol Im hoping now that maybe that was it. The only two grounds I seen was the one from the batt. to the fender, and the engine to the fire wall is that the only two?? If this doesnt do it I will look into the PIP and go that direction. Thanks everyone on the suggestions and help

 

[miesk5]

yo,

Ground Locations & Components Served in a 96; SEE DIAGRAMS

RH = Passenger side;

G101 front of engine compartment, front of fender apron (D1) - mine has 2 small black wires between starter relay & headlight; this is #5 in the diagram;

G100 @ LH front of engine compartment, on upper radiator support;

G100 & G104 (tied together in diagram);

G104 @ Rear of LH fender apron near hood hinge and 4WABS Test Connector (RED); G100 Serves Component, LH Oxygen Sensor, Fuel Pump Module, Inertia Fuel Shutoff, Misfire Sensor, Misfire Sensor Shield, Output Shaft Speed (OSS) Sensor, Powertrain Control Module (PCM) 5.0L;

G101 Serves, RH Oxygen Sensor; G104 Serves Component: 4WABS Control Module, 4WABS Data Link Connector, 4WABS Relay #1, Instrument Cluster, Powertrain Control Module (PCM) 5.8L, Powertrain Control Module (PCM) 5.8L, Programmable Speedometer/Odometer Module (PSOM), Trailer Relay Box; G103 (battery to engine) Lower RH front of engine serves Component, 4WABS Pump Motor, Battery, Data Link Connector (DLC), Mass Air Flow (MAF) Sensor, Powertrain Control Module (PCM) 5.0L, Powertrain Control Module (PCM) 5.8L, Right Front Park/Turn Lamp, Right Front Side Marker Lamp Right Headlamp;

G104 Rear of LH fender apron;

G201 Behind bottom of LH cowl panel (driver's side kick panel),Component, Compass/Outside Temperature Module, Day/Night Mirror, Inside Cargo Lamp, Left Power Lumbar Compressor Motor, Outside Cargo/High Mount Stop Lamps, Right Power Lumbar Compressor Motor, Seat Belt Switch, Door Lock Actuator (PDL & Probably Power Window Motor);

G200 Behind bottom of RH cowl panel serves Component, Air Bag Diagnostic Monitor, Electronic Shift Control Module, Instrument Cluster, Programmable Speedometer/Odometer Module (PSOM), Remote/Keyless Entry Module, Speed Control Servo/Amplifier Assembly; G103 (battery to engine) Lower RH front of engine serves Component, 4WABS Pump Motor, Battery, Data Link Connector (DLC), Mass Air Flow (MAF) Sensor, Powertrain Control Module (PCM) 5.0L, Powertrain Control Module (PCM) 5.8L, Right Front Park/Turn Lamp, Right Front Side Marker Lamp, Right Headlamp;

G400 Rear Window Defroster @ LH rear corner of cargo area, near rear lamp assembly;

Engine Block pic in a 94 5.8; G401 LH rear corner of cargo area, near rear lamp assembly (F9); "...The black battery wire goes from the front bolt of the engine mount (on the block) to this tab & up to the battery post, where a smaller black wire goes to the core support, providing a continuous ground path between the engine, frame, battery, & body; Frame & Battery pic in a 93; "...With the wheelwell gone, it's easy to inspect the frame ground, just inboard of the spring tower on top of the frame rail. The battery ground cable is stripped ~3/4" and a tab is soldered on so it can be bolted to the frame; Intake Manifold to Block Strap Location in a 96 5.0 is between 2nd & 3rd plugs on passenger side Source: by miesk5 at Ford Bronco Zone Forums

 

[miesk5]

yo Blue Oval;

Have you had battery, charging start sys checked for free @ a parts store?

a DEAD CELL COULD CAUSE MANY OF THE ISSUES.

Also the Check Engine Light (CEL) comes on when the electronic engine control system is not working properly. The check engine warning indicator comes on briefly when the ignition switch lock cylinder is turned to ON, and should turn off when the engine starts. If the check engine warning indicator does not come on when the ignition switch lock cylinder is turned to ON or if it comes on while the vehicle is moving, the system is malfunctioning

If the CEL does not light up at all when starting it; then suspect that someone removed it.

So, does it light up when turning key to start...etc.?

Who scanned for Codes?

If you have an OBD II scan tool hook it up and see if you can see a code now. Some parts store folks get confused when the scanner won't read; ithey tell owner that there are No Codes; but I found that my cig lighter's 12v vehicle power (VPWR) Lt Blue/White wire chaffed & shorted on ashtray frame. It caused Fuse 16 to blow itself...out (& in 96, this also caused the OBD II Diagnostic Link Connector (DLC) not to "power up" @ pin 16).

 

[blue oval]

The check engine light does light up with key on and when it fires up it goes off. Ok now I have tried and replaced with new the fuel pump, fuel filter, coil, icm, fuel pump relay, new plugs, plug wires, distributer cap, rotor button, Ive checked the fuel pressure on the fuel rail, cleaned the battery terminals lol. I'm going to check the ground on the frame. Today it done it again it just turn over but would not fire up, so I turned the key to the on position the fuel pump ran and quit as normal and hooked up my code scanner to see if any codes where on there and about 2min. in I heard the fuel pump kick on again and I thought that was odd since I havent touch the key anymore........ after it turned back on for the second round it did fire up. Do u all think it was odd for the pump to run its course then 2min later ran again?? Thought this might be interesting anyways there wasnt any codes either. And thanks everyone for helping me its a headache I just hope it fires up to get me to work in the morning.

 

[miesk5]

yo,

Pump Runs w/Ignition Switch Off; The ign switch actuator and or switch needs to be adjusted. When the ignition switch is switched to the ON position, it turns the EEC Power Relay on. The EEC Power Relay provides power to the EEC V processor and the control side of the fuel pump relay. Power for the fuel pump is supplied through a **** fuse in Power Distribution Box (PDB). From the high current fuse, current flow is through the fuel pump relay and Inertia Fuel Shutoff (IFS) switch to the fuel pump.

Try jiggling the key Without going to accessory or ON or start position to see if you hear the FP run.

next would be to test for batty voltage along the path from ign sitch @ column base through the Manual Lever Position Sensor (MLPS) (mounted on E4OD) to PCM & FP relays

Wiring Diagram in a 96 from EVTM; relays



Switch Pin-Out Diagram & Continuity Testing (Logic Tables) 96





Pin Number Circuit Circuit Function

B1 37 (Y) Battery to Load

B2 37 (Y) Battery to Load

B3 37 (Y) Battery to Load

B4 37 (Y) Battery to Load

B5 37 (Y) Battery to Load

A1 297 (BK/LG) Accessory Feed from Ignition Switch

A2 687 (GY/Y) Accessory Feed

A3 687 (GY/Y) Accessory Feed

A4 687 (GY/Y) Accessory Feed

P2 512 (T/LG) Bulb Test

GND 57 (BK) Ground

STA 32 (R/LB) Starter Control

P1 41 (BK/LB) Warning Lamp Proveout

I1 16 (R/LG) Ignition Switch to Ignition Coil Battery Terminal

I2 � Not Used

Ignition Switch Pin-Out Diagram & Continuity Testing (Logic Tables) in a 96; "...Disconnect ignition key warning switch terminal and wire from the ignition switch (11572). Test the continuity of the ignition switch as described in the following illustrations. Connect a self-powered test lamp or ohmmeter between the blade terminals indicated on the chart. No continuity between any blade and chassis ground should exist in any ignition switch position except the proof Circuit 41 (BK/LB) (Pin P1) and Circuit 512 (T/LG) (Pin P2) in the START position only. NOTE: For an engine-won't-crank condition with an automatic transmission (7003), determine if the condition exists with the shift control selector level in both PARK and NEUTRAL positions before performing the ignition switch continuity tests. If the no-crank condition occurs in one shift lever position but not the other, a more probable cause is the Manual Lever Position (MLPS) located on driver's side of transmission case.

Ignition Switch Mechanical Test: Accessories that fail to operate with the key in RUN, or that remain on when the key is turned off, may be the result of a misadjusted ignition switch rather than a malfunctioning ignition switch. Refer to Ignition Switch in the Adjustments portion of this section. Do not apply lubricant to the inside of the ignition switch. Test the steering column ignition system mechanical operation by rotating the ignition switch lock cylinder (11582) through all positions of the ignition switch. The movement should feel smooth with no sticking or binding. The ignition system should return from the START position back to the ON position without assistance (spring return). If sticking or binding is encountered, check for the following: burrs on the ignition switch lock cylinder; binding ignition switch lock cylinder; shroud rubbing against ignition switch lock cylinder; burrs or foreign material around the rack-and-pinion actuator in the housing of the ignition switch lock cylinder; insufficient **** on actuator; binding ignition switch..."

Actuator (Upper & Lower) pics in a 96 w/Out Tilt; Ford pn F2DZ 3E723 A, "Upper plastic ignition actuator gear with teeth often breaks prevents you from starting or shutting off the vehicle with the ignition key. The ignition rack actuator failure if often misdiagnosed as a ignition lock or ignition switch problem..." miesk5 Note, pn F0DZ 3E715 A is Lower actuator rod; This piece is actually what joins with the ignition switch to start the Bronco. It is pushed by the ignition lock cyliner and upper rack gear.

Source: by steeringcolumnservices.com http://www.steeringcolumnservices.com/ford/ignition-actuators.php

 

[blue oval]

I turned the key and wiggled it I never could get the pump to do anything, it has to go all the way to the ON position before it will

activate the fuel pump as would a normal vehicle, it sounds to run the full cycle then turn off as would a normal vehicle. I believe

to have a pattern though because it happened again today, If I turn the key to the ON position listen to the fuel pump run its cycle

and it doesn't run another or the second cycle anywhere between 10-20 sec. later it will fire up. Today it would not fire up so I

turned the key back to the ON position the fuel pump ran its cycle then about 10-20sec. later it ran another cycle it fired up and ran

good. So I have figured if it doesn't fire up I have to leave the key to the ON position and just wait for cycle two to run before it

will fire up. It's weird but seems to be the only pattern. What should I look at? or do? and as always I'm very appreciated for

the help.

 

[miesk5]

yo, ok

As for "before it will fire up"

II t is crankingg during this period?

If so, I have to suspect that the fuel pump's check valve is open (stuck open or defective)



Figure 1) has a discharge check valve (to maintain system pressure during shutdowns and to minimize starting problems), an inlet screen for protection and fuel return

The Supply Check Valve, which is normally closed, opens when the outlet pressure from the energized pump exceeds the opposing check valve spring force. When the pump is de-energized (i.e., engine is shut off), the supply check valve closes to maintain pump prime and fuel supply line pressure.

So, try this; (I can't recall if you have checked this yet, since I can not see your opening remarks in this reply mode)

Pressure Test Gauge Overview & pic; "...To test the fuel pressure you’ll need this tool. You will need to ***** it onto the schrader valve on the top of the fuel rail, it looks like a tire air valve stem. After attaching the fuel pressure tester, run the fuel pump for 10 seconds. Check that the pressure is within specs, and it doesn’t leakdown more than 5PSI within 60 seconds after pump shutdown..."

Source: by Ryan M (Fireguy50) at http://oldfuelinjection.com/?p=12

 

[miesk5]

yo,

I now see that you have checked for leak down; can you do it again (w/the new pump) if done w/old pump?

although this is not indicative of leak-down, check Fuel Pressure Regulator (FPR) anyway; pull vacuum hose and if you see or smell any gas, replaace it, bec. the diaphragm prob. ruptured.

Possible causes of a fuel-related no start include

No voltage to the fuel injectors

No pulse signal to the injectors from the PCM (no crank or cam sensor input to the PCM, or a bad driver circuit in the PCM, or a wiring harness problem

A shorted fuel injector (robs voltage from the other injectors so none will operate)

Check voltage using this diagram

Other electrical problems that can affect the pump include low voltage in the pump's power supply circuit or high resistance in the pump's ground connection. Either may prevent the pump from running or spinning fast enough to generate normal fuel pressure

So try a wiggle test, as Ford describes it; have someone wiggle the appropriate connector or ground while checking voltage or while strating. Such as the 12v power to all injectors @ C101; shown in this engine bay diagram by Ken