94' 5.8L will not start

[widersturbo]

Yup, at least I think I know what you mean. I still remember the first time I did one. I put the cap on & marked the location of every post all around the edge of distributor body so that when installing it I could put the rotor on & know as I sunk it whether or not I was pointing directly at a post. With #1 at TDC on the compression stroke I just kept dropping it until the rotor lined up perfectly with one of the marks and that was it. The post it was pointing to became #1 regardless of how the cap was marked. If you think you're a tooth off then try moving the wires over one post either way just to see what it does, it'll take, what, 6 maybe 7 minutes ? That's all I can really think of. To this day I hate screwing around with distributors, once it's in I'm happy to leave them alone.

Yeah I here that...distributors do ****.

Well, I got it to line up with what I think is #1 on the cap...and like I said previously, it really feels like it wants to fire, but it just doesnt. It is like hiccuping like it wants to fire, you know what I mean, its trying I think. I can try moving the wires all over one spot in both directions, but I dont know...

Why would I be getting flames out of the lower throttle body...to much fuel igniting in the cylinders? Myabe now that its right, its trying to start but its too flooded? I dont know....any other suggestions to try besides swapping the wires over one post? I will be going back down tomorrow, I swear I want to make it my last trip to try and fix this dang thing!!!

I still have no codes, still just the 111 pass codes, so everything should be correct and it should be firiring right, haha?!

Also, any ideas on why I can turn the dist and the fuel pump primes on and off? I can turn it one way or the other and it will do this, I thought that was kind of odd to say the least!

 

[Broncobill78]

Why would I be getting flames out of the lower throttle body...to much fuel igniting in the cylinders? Myabe now that its right, its trying to start but its too flooded? I dont know....any other suggestions to try besides swapping the wires over one post? I will be going back down tomorrow, I swear I want to make it my last trip to try and fix this dang thing!!!

Because the timing is incorrect /emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" /> you're getting a spark in the cylinder while the intake valve is still open. The flame front is traveling back along the intake runner & out the throttle body. Same as backfiring thru the carb.

Since this isn't a duraspark distributor it doesn't have a the vacuum module that Yardape mentioned but as long as the rotor points directly towards one of the posts you should be able to simply use that as the #1 post and set the firing order from there. Mark the distributor body so you know where the posts are and sink it until it points directly towards one. It's a TFI distributor but being a 94' isn't the TFI module remote mounted on the inner fender ? So you don't have either the vacuum advance or the TFI as landmarks when sinking it, I never thought of that.

While I'm thinking about it, when you're trying to start it are you doing it with the spout jumper removed or is it still in place ?

 

[BroncoJoe19]

Wow! You guys have been busy! /emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

As I read through this thread, I was thinking that using a straw like Steve mentioned may be a better way to locate TDC.

It has been soooo long since I adjusted the timing, I don't remember if it can be done with a timing light while cranking the engine. IF so, you might try that, but remember to pull the SPOUT like brocobill78 mentioned.

Here's another thought. It seems like you have been screwing with the timing enough that you should have hit upon the "sweet" spot somewhere along the line, and if you did, she still didn't start. Maybe you have another problem too. You need fuel, spark, compression, and AIR, all occuring at the correct TIME. How dirty is your air filter? You might try pulling and cleaning your IAC. Check and clean your IAC

http://www.fordfuelinjection.com/?p=39

At the bottom of this page, he also mentions fully depressing the throttle, while cranking to clear the flooded engine... more...

You may want to give it a good visual inspection for vacuum leaks.

If you have one, throw a vacuum guage on her... I'm guessing that you should have approx 18 inches of vac.

You'll need at a minimum 35 psi fuel pressure, you mentioned that you were going to put your pressure guage on her, did you?

One last ... way out thought, do you have the right plugs, and are they gapped properly?

 

[widersturbo]

Wow! You guys have been busy! /emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />
As I read through this thread, I was thinking that using a straw like Steve mentioned may be a better way to locate TDC.

It has been soooo long since I adjusted the timing, I don't remember if it can be done with a timing light while cranking the engine. IF so, you might try that, but remember to pull the SPOUT like brocobill78 mentioned.

Here's another thought. It seems like you have been screwing with the timing enough that you should have hit upon the "sweet" spot somewhere along the line, and if you did, she still didn't start. Maybe you have another problem too. You need fuel, spark, compression, and AIR, all occuring at the correct TIME. How dirty is your air filter? You might try pulling and cleaning your IAC. Check and clean your IAC

http://www.fordfuelinjection.com/?p=39

At the bottom of this page, he also mentions fully depressing the throttle, while cranking to clear the flooded engine... more...

You may want to give it a good visual inspection for vacuum leaks.

If you have one, throw a vacuum guage on her... I'm guessing that you should have approx 18 inches of vac.

You'll need at a minimum 35 psi fuel pressure, you mentioned that you were going to put your pressure guage on her, did you?

One last ... way out thought, do you have the right plugs, and are they gapped properly?

Whatevere the 'spout' is, I dont have it unplugged while trying to start it because I dont know anything about it.

We tried finding the marks on the harmonic balancer pulley, but you cannot even see them any longer...its all rusty.

I have already pulled out the IAC and cleaned it out but it was pretty clean to begin with.

The plugs are correct and gapped correctly (second set in 3 weeks)

Fuel pressure was a steady 42psi. No visible cracked or broken vaccum lines either.

I dropped the dist in and it lined up perfectly with the #1 post on the bottom of the cap, the rotor pointed right to it.

As far as air...we dont have the rubber intake snorkle/air cleaner installed on the throttle bodies while trying to start it...since we keep screwing around with the timing, we havent bothered to keep installing them, taking them off, do you think we need to have them on?

So its backfiring through the intake because the timing is off, again...

I will try the straw trick today I guess. Hopefully it does not fall in, thats a pretty large cylinder in there /emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

 

[widersturbo]

Whatevere the 'spout' is, I dont have it unplugged while trying to start it because I dont know anything about it.
We tried finding the marks on the harmonic balancer pulley, but you cannot even see them any longer...its all rusty.

I have already pulled out the IAC and cleaned it out but it was pretty clean to begin with.

The plugs are correct and gapped correctly (second set in 3 weeks)

Fuel pressure was a steady 42psi. No visible cracked or broken vaccum lines either.

I dropped the dist in and it lined up perfectly with the #1 post on the bottom of the cap, the rotor pointed right to it.

As far as air...we dont have the rubber intake snorkle/air cleaner installed on the throttle bodies while trying to start it...since we keep screwing around with the timing, we havent bothered to keep installing them, taking them off, do you think we need to have them on?

So its backfiring through the intake because the timing is off, again...

I will try the straw trick today I guess. Hopefully it does not fall in, thats a pretty large cylinder in there /emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

Okay, so I tried finding this SPOUT connector online, and couldnt find anything...

What exactly do I need to do with this connector when trying to time this engine? Yes, the ICM in by the fender behind the battery I 'think'. It is not anywhere noticable by the engine area. So, I need to pull the #1 plug again, place a straw in it, rotate the motor by hand until the straw comes all the way up, then my #1 cylinder is deffinately at TDC. Mark the harmonic damper pulley with a white paint marker or something along those lines, drop the dist in until the rotor lines up with the #1 button on the bottom of the dist cap, unplug the spot connector whereever that is, and start the motor? Use a timing light to set it 8* BTDC, and then plug the spout connector back in with the engine off I am guessing?

Thanks guys!

 

[Broncobill78]

The SpOut connector is the SPark OUTput. On the earlier trucks with distributor mounted TFI modules it pretty much right there next to the distributor, it breaks out of the TFI harness. It's a small (2"x1") rectangular connector with what looks like a cap on the end. It *looks* like an unused, capped off connector if you just glance at it quickly. If you pull the "cap" off it you'll notice there are spade connectors inside it and it's really a jumper & not just a plug. When you pull the jumper you take the PCM (computer) out of the timing circuit. The procedure for setting the timing on a TFI dizzy engine is to remove the SpOut jumper, set the timing & then replace the jumper. This lets you set the initial timing. It's like the vacuum advance on older distributors, remember how you'd have to set your initial timing with the line to the vacuum advance disconnected & plugged ? Same idea. The SpOut jumper has to be pulled when setting your timing. Where it is on yours I honestly don't know. I'd begin with the fender mounted TFI module, start at the TFI connector and trace the harness back looking for a capped off connector. On the 88' I was just working on the connector was gray & the cap/jumper was orange but I've seen them black as well. Since it's SPark OUTput & you get that from the TFI I would think the SpOut connector would be close to the TFI connector. Try looking over around the battery as well. the main thing is going to be to look for what appears to be a small gray connector that's capped off.

Yes, once you DO find TDC for #1 I'd take a moment to mark the harmonic balancer with a grease pencil or a bit of white paint (nail polish works well if anyone in the house has any otherwise CVS or someplace like that). The straw trick works as well as any for finding TDC. I like to use a TDC whistle but that's just a personal preference.

 

[BLADE262US]

The 94 I have here is a mass air motor so if yours is and you dont have the rubber snorkels hooked up the EEC is missing some valuable information from the mass air sensor . Try hooking that stuff back up and see what happens . The mass air sensor is located down by the filter box if you have anything there that has wires coming from it mounted in those tubes its a mass air system . /emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

 

[widersturbo]

The 94 I have here is a mass air motor so if yours is and you dont have the rubber snorkels hooked up the EEC is missing some valuable information from the mass air sensor . Try hooking that stuff back up and see what happens . The mass air sensor is located down by the filter box if you have anything there that has wires coming from it mounted in those tubes its a mass air system . /emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

Just got back from another 3 hours of worthless time!

There is no MAF sensor on this vehicle, just the IAC.

So, todays progress...Pulled the dist and then the number one plug. Tried the straw trick but it would not work since the plug goes in somewhat sideways into the cylinder head, not straight down, the straw wouldnt move at all...so, hooked back up the compression gauge, and rotated the motor by hand. Got compression and lined up the 0 on the balancer (found the marks, we used a wire wheel across the pulley to find them) Dropped the dist back in and lined the rotor up with the #1 button on the bottom of the cap (the rotor points pretty much right into the center of the intake manifold without the cap on). Found the spout behind the battery, it was a 2 wire connector with a grey plug. Pulled out the grey plug, connected the #1 wire back to the spark plug. Tired to fire it up,still freaking nothing. I dont know what the heck the problem is here but its really starting to **** me off. I tried rotating the dist side to side while the pops cranked it and it sounds like it wants to fire, but STILL NOTHING. I tired rotating the wires both ways a post, and nothing, sounded worse. Sometimes, randomly, the motor still just stops cranking, like it looses battery power or something. The battery is old, but we have a strong charger on it and the voltage is okay while cranking the motor over.

Any other ideas of what do here before my dad pushes it off a cliff??

 

[BLADE262US]

Heres how I set the mechanical timing if you follow this it will be right unless the timing chain has jumped a tooth . First thing is you pull number one plug front one passenger side . Second unplug the power wires going to the coil . Now either have someone bump the key for you or I have a button I made that I hook to the positive side of the starter relay and the other end to the small post on the starter relay that makes it pull in . Now put your thumb over the plug hole and bump the motor over till you feel it push your thumb away this way you know your on the compression stroke . Now unhook the button or take the keys out its all manual from here . You will need a 15/16 socket and a big ratchet or breaker bar and a medium sized screwdriver . Now get the ratchet set up so you can get ahold of the harmonic balancer bolt in the front of the crank so you can roll the motor back and forth . Now slide the screwdriver into the plug hole till it contacts the piston now move the crank back and forth and you will feel the screwdriver move up and down ( DO NOT PUT THE SCREWDRIVER IS SIDEWAYS straight down on the piston is a must ) you want to find the point where the screwdriver stops moving that will be exactly top dead center . Now take the screwdriver out and look to see where the rotor is pointing it should be at number one plug wire at this point if its not remove the distributor and realign you should be familiar with this at this point . Now put the plug back in and hook everything back up dont forget the coil wires . Double check your wire order and try to start . Leave the spout connector hooked up at this point if the timing is off a little the EEC will compensate for it you only want to pull that after its running so you can set the base timing to exactly what you want it to be . When you do get it fired up look at it with a timing light and the spout plugged in and youll see wherever you move it the EEC trys to keep it at the programmed timing if you unplug it and set it at lets say 10 deg as soon as you plug the spout back in it will move when the EEC takes over . If it doesnt start after this procedure then you may want to pull a valve cover and verify that both valves are closed at the point your setting as TDC and if thats doesnt work or maybe try this first someone may have put a 5.0 cam in it so try the 302 firing order just to see unless you're sure the history of the motor . /emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

 

[widersturbo]

Heres how I set the mechanical timing if you follow this it will be right unless the timing chain has jumped a tooth . First thing is you pull number one plug front one passenger side . Second unplug the power wires going to the coil . Now either have someone bump the key for you or I have a button I made that I hook to the positive side of the starter relay and the other end to the small post on the starter relay that makes it pull in . Now put your thumb over the plug hole and bump the motor over till you feel it push your thumb away this way you know your on the compression stroke . Now unhook the button or take the keys out its all manual from here . You will need a 15/16 socket and a big ratchet or breaker bar and a medium sized screwdriver . Now get the ratchet set up so you can get ahold of the harmonic balancer bolt in the front of the crank so you can roll the motor back and forth . Now slide the screwdriver into the plug hole till it contacts the piston now move the crank back and forth and you will feel the screwdriver move up and down ( DO NOT PUT THE SCREWDRIVER IS SIDEWAYS straight down on the piston is a must ) you want to find the point where the screwdriver stops moving that will be exactly top dead center . Now take the screwdriver out and look to see where the rotor is pointing it should be at number one plug wire at this point if its not remove the distributor and realign you should be familiar with this at this point . Now put the plug back in and hook everything back up dont forget the coil wires . Double check your wire order and try to start . Leave the spout connector hooked up at this point if the timing is off a little the EEC will compensate for it you only want to pull that after its running so you can set the base timing to exactly what you want it to be . When you do get it fired up look at it with a timing light and the spout plugged in and youll see wherever you move it the EEC trys to keep it at the programmed timing if you unplug it and set it at lets say 10 deg as soon as you plug the spout back in it will move when the EEC takes over . If it doesnt start after this procedure then you may want to pull a valve cover and verify that both valves are closed at the point your setting as TDC and if thats doesnt work or maybe try this first someone may have put a 5.0 cam in it so try the 302 firing order just to see unless you're sure the history of the motor . /emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

I doubt the cam was ever swapped, it used to be his work companies travel van...

Problem is, there is no room in a e350 to get a long flat headed ***** driver in there. And, the plug is angled, so I dont see how getting a ***** driver in there would be any easier then the straw trick, and the straw was flexible...

I dont see why the compression gauge wouldnt work the same. I know its in time, I even had him bump it over until #1 only made one revolution, i pulled the dist out and set that at cyl 1. It was bad, so I knew it was now 180* out, so I know how I have it now it is correct. I did a little test, pulled the #1 wire off the plug and put an old wire on the end of it...had him bump it over until I got a spark on the plug. Looked the rotor, it was pointing to #1 on the cap, and the balance was near zero on the harmonic damper...I know this thing has to be timed correctly, unless I have the wrong firing order, which I posted before, but it should be correct. I am honestly losing sleep over this thing. I dont ever give up on anything, and I love to see myself succeed in a tough problem like this, but I MUST fix this, lol.

 

[BroncoJoe19]

What is your voltage at the battery? And what voltage do you have when you are cranking? Could it be that it is less than ten volts, but with enough amperage from the charger to crank the engine, but all of your sensors are still puking?

With the key turned to ON/RUN, do you have 12 volts to the bat side of the coil?

Thinking that maybe, you have an ignition switch problem, and you get juice to the coil in the start position, but not in the run position.

Did you mention that you hear the fuel pump prime? Was it only while cranking? or does it prime when you first turn the key to ON/RUN?

Trying to think outside the box here.

Are all of the wires firmly seated on the plugs? and into the cap? Did you use dielectric grease on the boots? Seabronc once mentioned to me that he uses a little dental pick to hold the boot out from the cap as he pushes the wires into the cap, so as to allow any air to escape, so that it doesn't get compressed and push the boot and wire back off.

I think in that early post from Steve83 that there were instructions about how to route the wires. IF they are not routed properly, one can get missfires because they'll induce a spark in an adjacent wire/plug. If not in that post, I know that miesk5 has that info at his site www.broncolinks.com

Do you have any kind of alarm system?

 

[widersturbo]

What is your voltage at the battery? And what voltage do you have when you are cranking? Could it be that it is less than ten volts, but with enough amperage from the charger to crank the engine, but all of your sensors are still puking?
With the key turned to ON/RUN, do you have 12 volts to the bat side of the coil?

Thinking that maybe, you have an ignition switch problem, and you get juice to the coil in the start position, but not in the run position.

Did you mention that you hear the fuel pump prime? Was it only while cranking? or does it prime when you first turn the key to ON/RUN?

Trying to think outside the box here.

Are all of the wires firmly seated on the plugs? and into the cap? Did you use dielectric grease on the boots? Seabronc once mentioned to me that he uses a little dental pick to hold the boot out from the cap as he pushes the wires into the cap, so as to allow any air to escape, so that it doesn't get compressed and push the boot and wire back off.

I think in that early post from Steve83 that there were instructions about how to route the wires. IF they are not routed properly, one can get missfires because they'll induce a spark in an adjacent wire/plug. If not in that post, I know that miesk5 has that info at his site www.broncolinks.com

Do you have any kind of alarm system?

The fuel pump primes when it is in the run position like it should...

No there is no alarm system...

Battery voltage is probably between 10-13volts when cranking, however, I picked up a new battery for the van today to try because I know that battery in there is garbage. Im probably going down tomorrow to check some more stuff out. I wish I could get something in there in the #1 hole to determine when the piston is exactly at TDC. I cant hold anything

while somone rotates it by hand because the alternator pulley, well, will take out my forearm, lol. And the straw trick is too flexible, it just flops around and falls out...maybe I will try an angle mirror and small LED light to look down the plug hole to see when the piston is at TDC.

 

[widersturbo]

This might be a really dumb question, but, when the #1 piston is at TDC, is there any other cylinder that would be at TDC as well on the other bank, say cylinder , 5, 6, 7 or 8? That way, I would have eaiser access to doing the straw trick to see when im at TDC. IT doesnt really make sense, but heck, just a random though.

 

[BroncoJoe19]

Since yuo found the mark on the harmonic balancer, can't you just set the timing with a light while cranking it? Remember to pull the SPOUT

 

[Elmo]

Without seeming to beat this dead horse. But to add my take on the drinking straw trick what ever you use to check the position of the #1 piston wheather it be a straw ,screwdriver pincil you will have to tendrely hold it as to allow it to move freely in what ever direction it choses. As has been stated in other post use finger/thumb to determin when #1 is comming up on its compression stroke while some one turns the engine with a socket on the crankshaft bolt not the starter.once you know it is comming up on compression insert the straw,***** driver,pincel ect.this way it cant drop very far in to the cylinder. while your helper is slowly turning the crank pay attention to the movement of the straw,***** driver,pencil allow it to move in what ever direction it wants it will move in the same direction until TDC then it will reverse its direction of movement. At this point STOP all movement and check the balancer to verify the pointer is lined up with the 0 .if it is check the dizzy cap noting which post is designated as #1 and verify that the rotor is pointing at it ,if you can turn the dizzy and make it point to the #1 post do so and put the cap on and forget about dizzy position cause it is right.Verify the firing order is right,counter clock wise on the cap starting with #1 wire on the #1 post are you sure that All the wires are good and getting fire ?when cranking the engine one wire on the coil should have constant 12 volts the other should blink, if it stays on all the time or doesnt blink at a steady pace then the coil would not fire correctly therefore giving the impression that it almost starts but not . Please some one correct me if I am thinking wrong

 

[widersturbo]

PROBLEM SOLVED!!

I was using the fire order, from a fsx straight from Ford, and from an Alldata print out. It showed the correct fire order, HOWEVER, it showed the rotor turning clockwise. WRONG. The rotor turns counterclockwise, and I think someone even mentioned this prior in this post, but I think I read right over it.

Drove down there to my dads house, swapped the wires to run the opposite way, and the damn thing fired right up!!! I feel like an idiot, haha.

I want to throw a HUGE thanks out here to EVERY single man here who threw their input and advice out to me. Thanks to this amazing community, I fixed the problem. Honestly, without you guys, I wouldnt have been able t do it.

So, problem solved and thanks again guys!

 

[BroncoJoe19]

Hey... did I tell you these guys are good. or what? /emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

Glad you got it fixed! /emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

 

[Elmo]

Dam good work you did not loose the war. You are not the first to reverse the firing order seems almost un natural to go counter clockwise

 

[widersturbo]

And were back with another no start issue, haha...

So a new run down of the problem NOW!!!

After I swapped the wires and got it running good, tightened down the dizzy and it was all good. My dad was going to finish putting the snorkles and airbox and all that easy stuff back on and he was going to pick up a battery for it since the two we had for it were super weak. So, he put everything back together, and put in the better of the two batteries last night, and he mistakingly hooked up the battery backwards. No fuses blew to my knowledge because he hooked it back up correctly, and put a battery charger on it and it fired up and ran last night. So, he goes out this morning to go to Home Depot...starts right up he said, he drives it for a little while, goes up to get some gas since it was on empty, fills her up, tries to start it and no go. He said the battery was super weak. So, there was an Advanced Auto directly across the street, he went over, bought a new battery, put it in at the gas station, tried to start it and it doesnt even crank. I went down (he had it towed home) and made sure the battery was hooked up correctly and it is. All the lights come on the dash, and the fuel pump primes, but when you turn the key, nothing happens. It clicks once, thats it. Not even a starter click noise, but something clicks, howevere I dont know what it is or where its coming from. So, im thinking either A, the starter is bad that we just put in a month ago, or B, maybe the motor is locked up for some reason?

Any idea's guys? He is so sick of the van, he wants to scrap it, but again, its just another battle for me to win against the thing /emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

 

[Elmo]

That single click when you turn the key usually means you got a bad connection some where. Check no clean the battery terminals where the wires connect to the terminal and where the terminal connects to the battery follow the ground back to where it connects to the body and to where it connects to the engine clean all these connections and ensuer that they are tight. Follow the red,positive to the starter silinoid ( this is what you are hearing click) clean the connections on both sides continue following this to the starter clean and tighten. in all you probably only have 7 connections that could cause this problem. By clean i mean dis-assemble scrub with wire brush spray with brake cleaner reassemble. while you are doing all this have the battery out sitting on a block of wood with your charger set on med -low setting that way you know that you have a good charge on the battery when you put it back in. re-assemble connections re-install battery get dad to hit the key if it does not spin over (witch it should) you need to check to see if the starter silinoid is making connection useing a test light or Digital volt/ohm meter.should have power/12volts on both post of the silinoid when the key is in the start position also at same time should have power/12volts at the connection on the starter. hope this helps keep us posted