94' 5.8L will not start

[widersturbo]

New member here, was a new member on ford-forums.com and was not getting any activity from anyone besides from the helpful man who sent me here to post up (thanks to broncojoe19).

So, hopefully someone can help me out here...The problem lies with a 94' Ford E350 1ton van with the 5.8L motor.

So here it is with some brief information of the problem...

It is my dad's van, approx getting to 200k miles. He purchased it about 2 years ago and it has always had a problem where he would have to sit in the driveway for 10-15 minuutes before it would start. It would crank and crank and then finally fire up. When it would start, it would run fine, no CEL ever...so, after two years he finally wanted to try and fix the issue. About a week prior to this, the starter was sounding nasty as all heck. So, we replaced the starter motor/solenoid unit. Our next step was to just give it a tune up, since the wires looked old and nasty. We replaced the distributor cap, the rotor button, all 8 plugs, all the wires and the coil wire. Now it would not start at all. I know for a fact we have the firing order correct on the cap, unless Ford gave us the wrong fire order....problem is it does not sound like it is trying to even fire on every cylinder. We got it started once and it was running like ***** like sounded like it was on 4 cylinders. I know we have fuel, I pulled the plugs and they were drenched in gas. I can smell it, you can hear the pump running while we are cranking too. I pulled a couple of plugs out, and we have compression coming from the cylinders. I really do not think we have a internal motor issue. So then with the help of broncojoe19, i was able to perform a flash dance DTC check and I got codes 211 and 556. For 211, we went ahead and pulled the distributor and replaced the ignition pick up/hall effect sensor. I also replaced the fuel pump relay for the code 556....got everything back in yesterday after replacing those, and still nothing. I also replaced both battery cable terminals since they were corroded. I did notice that when I stripped the cables back, there was some slight corrosion in all the cables inside of the colored conduit, but shouldnt be anything major. So, I tried another DTC check again after both items were replaced and no codes. Just the normal 111 pass codes. So, my question is, can anyone point us in a new direction here? Am I skipping over something easy, is there something common that fails on these that we can check out? I am going to use a noide light this weekend and check too make sure all the fuel injectors are pulsing while we are cranking the motor as well. Also going to hook up my fuel pressure gauge and make sure we arent bleeding off pressure somewhere. I checked the fuel pressure regulator on the fuel rail, and it was dry inside for what I could see and it didnt smell like fuel was getting into it...

Also, on another note, the van, if he would let it sit for a couple of days, or drive it 15 miles then come back out in 5 minutes, it would always have this problem.

Is there like a common place for corroded wires or anything here!?!

The Fire order we went off of is 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8. #1 cylinder being standing in front of the motor:

4 8

3 7

2 6

1 5

The cap we have is from Advanced Auto parts and it has a number 1 where the 1 wire should be placed onto the cap as well. I thought it might be wrong, so I crossed the wires just to try it, and it didnt even sound right.

The motor sounds like it is only trying to fire on like 2-4 cylinders...so enought blabbering unless you guys want more information from me, haha. So hopefully someone can help us here please!!

Thanks again!

 

[BLADE262US]

The firing order you have there is correct but to go by the markings on the cap could get you in trouble . Best way to tell for sure is to pull #1 plug bring the motor up on top dead center compression stroke and then see where the rotor is pointing that is going to be #1 plug wire and then follow your firing order going around to the left . Somone may have been in it at one point or another . Try that and see what happens /emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

 

[widersturbo]

The firing order you have there is correct but to go by the markings on the cap could get you in trouble . Best way to tell for sure is to pull #1 plug bring the motor up on top dead center compression stroke and then see where the rotor is pointing that is going to be #1 plug wire and then follow your firing order going around to the left . Somone may have been in it at one point or another . Try that and see what happens /emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

I thought about someone possibly being in there at one time too, but if the timing was off, when it did start before, it would have ran rough, or not at all....

 

[BLADE262US]

Did you have the distributor out ? I did not see mention of that as the last poster has so BOLDLY pointed out . You said you changed the pickup which can be done without pulling it . If you didnt change the wires one at a time you could be off one from what it was last time that could explain the no start now .Really need to find TDC compression stroke and see where the rotor is pointing . The TFI could be bad but Ive never seen one come back after it quit but could happen I suppose . I also have never ever seen a Ford engine that the distributor went through the intake they have all seated in the block /emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

 

[widersturbo]

Did you have the distributor out ? I did not see mention of that as the last poster has so BOLDLY pointed out . You said you changed the pickup which can be done without pulling it . If you didnt change the wires one at a time you could be off one from what it was last time that could explain the no start now .Really need to find TDC compression stroke and see where the rotor is pointing . The TFI could be bad but Ive never seen one come back after it quit but could happen I suppose . I also have never ever seen a Ford engine that the distributor went through the intake they have all seated in the block /emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

What is a TFI? Yes, we had the distributor out to change the pick up. We did have to remove it to change the pick up because the shaft goes down through the distributor housing and there two dowel pins holding in the gear and sleeve on the bottom of the distributor. I know for a fact all the wires are on correctly, we went over that about 50 times double checking, haha. Im going to take out the #1 plug this weekend and turn the motor until I get one to TDC and check the position of the rotor, but I dont think that is the issue. Im going to check the wiring down behind the battery tonight maybe if I have time to get down there, since there is a shared ground down there in a splice. I pulled a couple of the wires off and stuck some old plugs on the end of them, cranked the motor and they were sparking. I have spark out of the coil too, strong spark.

And, yes the distributor is sitting against the block correctly.

 

[widersturbo]

Not according to Ford or Haynes. The PIP is under the tone ring on the dist. shaft, and can't be extracted without removing the dist. drive gear from the bottom of the shaft.
Personally, I just replaced the whole dist. with a reman with a warranty. Not worth the hassle.Thick-Film Ignition module, as that last TSB I posted shows. If you're unsure about any other abbreviations or terms, read this thread:

http://www.fourdoorbronco.com/board/showthread.php?t=5226If it's sparking, and the injectors are opening (flooded), then there are only 3 possibilities:

1) something's not happening at the right TIME (distributor not stabbed right...)

2) not enough air to match the amount of fuel (ruptured FPR, restricted fuel return, MAF not connected if it's a MAF engine...)

3) not enough compression

If the TFI was faulty, then I shouldnt have any spark coming out of the coil though correct? I have spark. I am going to pull every plug out this weekend again, and check the compression of every cylinder. While im there, I make sure #1 is at the right spot on the rotor.

 

[BLADE262US]

Yes you are correct on the pickup I was thinking duraspark when you said magnetic pickup I forgot that one is under the target ring . The duraspark ones can be done from the top oooops and if your TFI was messed up you wouldnt have any spark . Definetly need to check the mecahanical timing by the procedure listed earlier . /emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

 

[widersturbo]

Yes you are correct on the pickup I was thinking duraspark when you said magnetic pickup I forgot that one is under the target ring . The duraspark ones can be done from the top oooops and if your TFI was messed up you wouldnt have any spark . Definetly need to check the mecahanical timing by the procedure listed earlier . /emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

Okay now I can rule that out then (the TFI).

Im going to check the timing tonight, this is getting on my nerves too much, haha.

 

[widersturbo]

Okay now I can rule that out then (the TFI).
Im going to check the timing tonight, this is getting on my nerves too much, haha.

Okay just got back from looking at the van. Pulled the #1 plug out, and put my compression gauge on it...pulled the cap off and it appeared to be a tooth off...i pulled the dist. and got it so the rotor was pointing right at the #1 button on the cap. Went to fire it up, sounded like it wanted to but still nothing. I pulled the #4 plug, just because it was the easiest to get to with the dog house off, and it was soaked in fuel. Im going to bring my spark plug cleaner down this weekend and try cleaning all the plugs, driaining the oil to get all the fuel out of the system from cranking on it for 2 weeks now and put in fresh oil and reinstall the plugs. I checked the fuel pressure too, it was roughly 45psi, and it did not bleed down. So, I have ruled out the fuel being a possibly problem, and it should damn well start up hopefully after the plugs are cleaned!!! Atleast Im praying it does...I also went ahead and ran a DTC check again, and nothing, just the 111 pass codes.

The only I forgot to mention before was sometimes while trying to start the motor, when cranking, it just stops on its own (cranking) and then will try again as your holding the ignition switch to the run position. It seemed a little better after I fixed the ignition timing, but still did it once this time.

Dangit, I really want to get this running for him, its starting to get to me that I cannot figure it out, haha.

Any other suggestions?

 

[duckdogwhiskey]

No, don't try to put it in one place to start the engine, and don't worry about a smooth idle. Leave it JUST loose enough that you can turn it with some effort, then have an assistant crank the engine while you make TINY adjustments to the distributor's position until it starts. When it does, use your timing light to set it to ~10

 

[widersturbo]

I am just going to throw my two cents in here for what it is worth, however all the suggestions thus far are from folks who know a lot more than me. I was having pretty much the same problem and did ALL of the things that you have done thus far, plus pulling the ICM and having it checked at the parts store. My mechanic suggested that his thoughts were that the stater in the distributor was bad. I changed the whole distributor because the stater was looking pretty hard to get at and the distributor wasn't all that much more. Once I got the distributor in right (after I did it wrong the first time) it cranked right up and has not failed to start on the first crank since. Now was it the distributor/stater or was the timing just off? That is really the question in my case, but... Again, just my two cents.

What are you referring to as the stator? The only thing in this distributor, starting from the top, is the cap, rotor, pulse ring, ignition pick up/hall effect sensor (that was replaced the other night), then the shaft that slides down through the distributor housing, a sleeve with a pin through it, then the cast iron gear with a pin through it...and thats it.

So, there is nothing else in there to replace to my knowledge, the stator is probably part of the pick up coil for this application :shrug

 

[BLADE262US]

I think hes refering to the pulse ring as the stator . Did you notice that one of the legs on that is either wider or narrower I cant remember which way it goes but thats how the EEC determines #1 /emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

 

[widersturbo]

I think hes refering to the pulse ring as the stator . Did you notice that one of the legs on that is either wider or narrower I cant remember which way it goes but thats how the EEC determines #1 /emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

I honestly did not pay any attention to the legs on it when I had it off, however,I did mark it, and it does only go on one way. It is slotted with two slots, so you cant put it on backwards.

 

[widersturbo]

I honestly did not pay any attention to the legs on it when I had it off, however,I did mark it, and it does only go on one way. It is slotted with two slots, so you cant put it on backwards.

Okay just got back from about 3 hours from tweeking with this dang van again...

Pulled out all the plugs and cleaned them with a cleaner I have, pulled the fuel pump relay and just cranked the motor over to get all the fuel out of the cylinders...plenty of wind in every cylinder, thats for sure. Put the plugs back in, still no start. Pulled the #1 plug and put my compression gauge back in, had my dad just bump the motor until the needle jumped meaning #1 piston was up. Pulled the cap off, timing was wrong. Fixed it, tried starting, nothing. Did the same thing with the compression gauge, wrong again. Pulled the distributor again, put it where I thought it should be...cranked, and sounds like it wants to fire, but nothing. Loosened the dist. and tried rototing it both ways while he was cranking, nothing, still will not start. Did have a couple flames out of the lower throttle body, so that means that fuel and spark are igniting, but nothing is going on....***!?!?! It really sounds like it wants to fire, but it just wont. It studders like its trying to fire up, but like I said, just wont.

Another thing I noticed too was that when my dad just had the key on, I was turning the dist, and the fuel pump was turning on and off....is that normal? Like when the dist would find a 'sweet spot' if you want to call it, the fuel pump would prime, lol???

 

[Broncobill78]

Just a random thought here, I had a similar prob yrs ago. Had to replace a set of intake gaskets on a 460 & just for the life of me couldn't get the distributor back in right. Seemed like I must have been getting it in one tooth off one way or the other. It would crank & act like it wanted to fire, I could hear it getting closer and closer as the day wore on but it was outside the timing adjustments I could make by turning the distributor. Finally in frustration I simply moved all the plug wires over one post (I know, better to do it right but it was late & I needed the thing in the morning) and sure enough it fired. Being as lazy as I am I left it that way for several months until I swapped to an accel distributor & corrected the problem properly. While it's certainly not a "correct" fix, if it *sounds* like it's close to firing & you can't spin the distributor enough to get it there it might be worth a try. Like I said, just a thought.

 

[widersturbo]

Just a random thought here, I had a similar prob yrs ago. Had to replace a set of intake gaskets on a 460 & just for the life of me couldn't get the distributor back in right. Seemed like I must have been getting it in one tooth off one way or the other. It would crank & act like it wanted to fire, I could hear it getting closer and closer as the day wore on but it was outside the timing adjustments I could make by turning the distributor. Finally in frustration I simply moved all the plug wires over one post (I know, better to do it right but it was late & I needed the thing in the morning) and sure enough it fired. Being as lazy as I am I left it that way for several months until I swapped to an accel distributor & corrected the problem properly. While it's certainly not a "correct" fix, if it *sounds* like it's close to firing & you can't spin the distributor enough to get it there it might be worth a try. Like I said, just a thought.

The problem is, I dont exactly know where the distributor 'should' line up when it is installed correctly, because I dont think it was properly in time prior to screwing around with it.

Does anyone have a picture with the cap off or anything that I could take a peek at? The thing is, If I put the cap and put the distributor where the #1 is on the aftermarket cap, it could be one tooth to the right or left, since the dist. can be moved that far side to side, you know what I mean?

 

[Yardape]

place the dizzy into the block so that the vaccum pod is about center. You can twist the dizz the same distance both ways. then line up the rotor to number one.

 

[widersturbo]

place the dizzy into the block so that the vaccum pod is about center. You can twist the dizz the same distance both ways. then line up the rotor to number one.

Whoaaa, can I get a more simplified explanation, haha.

I understand the dizzy is the distributor, but what is the vacuum pod? Well, when the dist is set into place, there is no moving the rotor ...?

I need to know where the rotor should be pointing when cylinder one is at TDC. I know when #1 is up since I am using my compression gauge, but the problem like stated before is, I dont know where the rotor 'should' be facing to have it correctly timed.

 

[Broncobill78]

The problem is, I dont exactly know where the distributor 'should' line up when it is installed correctly, because I dont think it was properly in time prior to screwing around with it.
Does anyone have a picture with the cap off or anything that I could take a peek at? The thing is, If I put the cap and put the distributor where the #1 is on the aftermarket cap, it could be one tooth to the right or left, since the dist. can be moved that far side to side, you know what I mean?

Yup, at least I think I know what you mean. I still remember the first time I did one. I put the cap on & marked the location of every post all around the edge of distributor body so that when installing it I could put the rotor on & know as I sunk it whether or not I was pointing directly at a post. With #1 at TDC on the compression stroke I just kept dropping it until the rotor lined up perfectly with one of the marks and that was it. The post it was pointing to became #1 regardless of how the cap was marked. If you think you're a tooth off then try moving the wires over one post either way just to see what it does, it'll take, what, 6 maybe 7 minutes ? That's all I can really think of. To this day I hate screwing around with distributors, once it's in I'm happy to leave them alone.