89 Bronco II new to me

[Tiha]

it is new but if there is one defective in 10,000 I will get that one. Welcome to my life.

Sorry, I had to laugh, but that is exactly the way I feel all the time. I say that same thing all the time.

So hey, you are not alone. There are 2 in 10,000.

It is nice that it is running better. Always a tough call replacing "new" parts.

 

[L\Bronco]

Good news and bad. Got the injectoers in and it runs like a different car. runs smooth idles as smooth as your desktop and should pass smog. Long story but now I need to take it to a special smog station, ain't even going to go there. Runs great but still wants to trigger the occasional code 41. Plug in the code reader and it shows a code 11 which apparently means all is well but if you wait it will show a code 10 which I cannot find on any code chart and after the 10 it will show a 41. O2 sensor? it is new but if there is one defective in 10,000 I will get that one. Welcome to my life.

Hey Grumpy
11 is a pass, for hard faults, 10 is a separator code indicating that the memory codes are coming, 41 is lean and in memory. That code can only be seen live during the key on engine running test.
Warm the truck up, then start the test while its idling, it should rev up and flash a code 30, turn the wheel back and forth a couple times and press and release the brake once, then after some rough running and surging, you should see 10 again, stomp the throttle to WOT and off immediately. It will idle back down after a few seconds and flash the codes.
Hope that helps.
Cheers

 

[grumpy old man]

Ok got all the new parts on, O2 sensor, cat, map sensor, distributor, injectors, had it tested and it is still a gross polluter. looking at three times the gross polluter limit.

It runs better than it has since I first got it running.

It no longer has any exhaust smoke idle or running.

Should I just start replacing parts all over again or does anyone know someone in the So Cal area that can fix it?

 

[grumpy old man]

OK tried the koer test. started it up let it idle and turned on the code reader. started the test and the engine stumbled slightly and gave a code 6. Reved it up no code 30 turned the wheel back and forth pressed the brake and gave it a wot. The code reader shut off.

I am going to give it another try but I am beginning to think that there is something hinky here, maybe ECM?

 

[grumpy old man]

OK finally got it to do the koer. I remmber seeing somewhere that it would not do the test if there were anystored codes.

Started it up and did not get a code 30 but a code 6. Don't know if that means anything but it did give off a code 14 and a code 77.

 

[wyo58]

Near as I can tell this is a system lean code. If it is a running code it claims fuel system lean. If it is a memory code it says this: System was lean for 15 seconds or more (no HO2S switching) – Fuel control. so something is wonky with the O2 sensor. Could be wiring to the pcm or like you said the O2 sensor you put in is bad. I'd look real close at the plug for the O2 sensor and you could do resistance test between the pcm and the two O2 sensor wires at the sensor to make sure of a good connection between the two. Glad your injectors solved alot of your problem! Good luck!

 

[wyo58]

OK finally got it to do the koer. I remmber seeing somewhere that it would not do the test if there were anystored codes.

Started it up and did not get a code 30 but a code 6. Don't know if that means anything but it did give off a code 14 and a code 77.

14 I believe is an erratic pip and a 77 is a : did not receive a goose test.

 

[grumpy old man]

I put in a new distributor which did not affect the pip at all. There is some kind of breakout box that supposedly helps with tracing a pip. There are a ton of them on ebay but done know if they are universal or if there is a specific one for bronco II and ranger.

At this point there is not much I wouldn't do to fix this thing. I thought about saying ***** it and registering in oregon as my granddaughter is going to oregon u but running as fat as it is fuel economy would probably be in the gallons to mile ratio.

Wonder if I can put a chevy engine in it?

 

[grumpy old man]

I have been thinking about the downward progression of the Bronco. This may make some sense to someone that knows the system a lot better than I do. The first time I had the thing tested it was over the allowable limits but no where near the gross polluter limits. I did nothing to it but reset the timing and make sure that I drove it long enough to get the cat sufficiently hot. when I had it retested it it was like three times the gross polluter limits. Something happened to really ***** up the system in between the first and second test and this was before I changed any parts.

The O2 sensor, cat, map, distributor and injectors have all been changed and have not dropped the emissions a bit.
the car does run smoother, idles and starts better but the emissions are still through the roof. So what could have happened between the first and second tests that started this whole mess?

There is a TPS, maybe a MAF, haven't noticed one but havent looked either, and the ECM. Is it possible that something in the ECM died and now it is calling for extreme rich?

Is there someone out there that I can send it to and have it checked? I am too far into this to quit now and my granddaughter would be crushed if I gave up

 

[L\Bronco]

Hey Grumpy, I dont want to speak out of turn, but maybe reach out to motech. He’s in in santa cruz I believe. He might be able to help you out or possibly hook you up with someone close.
Hope that helps
Cheers

 

[wyo58]

I have been thinking about the downward progression of the Bronco. This may make some sense to someone that knows the system a lot better than I do. The first time I had the thing tested it was over the allowable limits but no where near the gross polluter limits. I did nothing to it but reset the timing and make sure that I drove it long enough to get the cat sufficiently hot. when I had it retested it it was like three times the gross polluter limits. Something happened to really ***** up the system in between the first and second test and this was before I changed any parts.

The O2 sensor, cat, map, distributor and injectors have all been changed and have not dropped the emissions a bit.
the car does run smoother, idles and starts better but the emissions are still through the roof. So what could have happened between the first and second tests that started this whole mess?

There is a TPS, maybe a MAF, haven't noticed one but havent looked either, and the ECM. Is it possible that something in the ECM died and now it is calling for extreme rich?

Is there someone out there that I can send it to and have it checked? I am too far into this to quit now and my granddaughter would be crushed if I gave up

I don't have tons of experience with ECM's but all of the ones I have been around when they die the die complete. I have seen MAF sensors especially those with intake air temp sensors reading the incorrect temps, which would put you rich of lean. In my experience any time I've have strange things happening electrically, it has usually been grounds or bad connections on connectors. With the last codes you have the 14 code is troubling, erratic pip. That affects not only spark timing but also fuel injector timing. I have seen new PIP sensors bad out of the box, but I don't remember you getting that code coming up before. So again I would not rule out a bad PIP, but would ohm the wires from the PIP connector to the ECM to see if there is a problem there. Also you should be able to find the correct resistance of the intake air temp sensor verses what actual air temp is, that would tell you if it is reading correctly. I've seen those sensors not reading the correct temp but since it was still within its rated range won't set any codes. check these two areas maybe you will find your culprit. Good Luck Grumpy!

 

[grumpy old man]

The 14 has been popping up now and again from the beginning which is why I put in a new distributor. I have read many stories about bad distributors so I am not going to discount that the distributor is OK. First lesson when opening a hood is just because it is new doesn't mean it is good.

Motorcraft makes, or made, a diagnostic tool for chasing computer wiring problems. there are a ton of them on EBAY, everybody is getting rid of them and I would buy one in a heartbeat if I could figure out which one I need for this bronco. Supposedly they make chasing ghosts a lot easier but I have not find anyone that knows what number I need.

There is no MAF that I have found and it has no EGR. It is a pretty basic system. The thing that I cant figure out is the change from test 1 to test 2. the old ones like the bronco go onto rollers and they probe the exhaust at 15 and 25 MPH. First test it failed at 15 and passed at 25. The testor who is a friend said to back down the timing a few degrees and drive it at least 40-50 miles to make sure that everything is as hot as possible. It went from 150 HC to 307 and from 0.06 CO to 7.42 with no changes but about 5 degrees less timing. What caused that drastic change? And replacing the O2, cat, map, distributor and injectors actually made it worse. I have been wrenching on and off for over 60 years and I am totally stumped.

That is why I am starting to think about the can't be but it might.

 

[eddiej]

It seems you've sure put a lot of parts and effort into getting this to pass emissions and maybe it has by now as I'm a little late to this discussion.
Just a couple things to check as I didn't see it in your post, but did you remove the SPOUT key when you adjusted or set the timing? Is it possible the timing chain slipped a cog between tests? Rotate until the timing mark for cylinder#1 points to TDC. If it's on its compression stroke, both its pushrods should be slightly loose. You should be able to rotate them and the rotor should be pointing to the #1 tower in the distributor cap. Check that the cap's plug wires are installed in the correct firing order. (i had mine wrong and it ran but not very well.) If you set the timing back to factory spec, what codes appear? Also, there is an extension cable available for the OBD1 code reader that lets you use the reader inside the vehicle making it much easier to pull codes.
PS. TheRangerStation website has a lot of info for those little 2.9's. I've rebuilt several and they're quite reliable.

 

[johnnyreb]

Everything is covered quite well here, and your Bronco II does indeed use a single, in-tank pump.

You may have options when replacing it of just pump motor itself. As previously mentioned, if you get the entire module, you will get your new sender for your gauge too. Try and stay away from certain brands, like Spectre and even Delphi. If Motorcraft is still available, spend the extra $$. Denso works too if possible. Absent those two choices, Delphi will be the lesser of the remaining evils.

Of course you'll be doing your filter same time. It's also a great preventative idea to replace Fuel Pump and EEC Power Relays. They both live in the underhood power distribution box as shown in photo. Stick with Motorcraft, should still be readily available.

View attachment 31512

One thought came to mind reading through your posts.

"Her answer? An older Bronco!"

Are you certain she meant a Bronco II? What if she meant a gen 1?

Also stay away--FAR AWAY ---FROM AIRTEX---THEY ARE LOUSEY FUEL PUMPS

 

[grumpy old man]

OK guys, I am baaaaaaaack. Had too much building up on the to do list and needed a break anyway. I found an 89 ford emissions manual with all the pin outs in it. I have removed the wire looms and put them on a bench. I have traced every circuit and found nothing. The only change I have seen is that the circuit resistance has dropped from an average of 0.05/6 to 0.01/2 by spraying all the loom connectors with contact spray. (years of sitting in the desert?) I did open up the injector loom and found that the insulation they used on all the in loom connectors was desinigrating, so I cleaned them all up and taped them securely. Doesn't look like they were causing problems yet but how long??

Trying to find things in this book reminds me of why I started realizing that Ford was a 4 lertter word, but that is another subject. I am just about to tape up all the looms just to clean them up and reinstall and want to plug an ocilliscope to the PIP circuit to check the dist and can find nothing in the book about that. The only code it was setting when I quit was a 14 which is the PIP, ergo I need to check the dist. Changing the distributor did nothing to change the occasional code 14 but as previously stated the dist was changed and the new one acts the same as the original. Two doing the same thing is questionable but never say never.

I can also not find anything about testing an O2 sensor, but it seems that the O2 will set a code, so again who knows.

In my research I am finding that the coolant temp sensor can have a dramatic effect on fuel flow, and this thing does not warm up according to the gauge, so I replaced the sensor. I also replaced the gauge sender and tstat. I may be chasing a ghost from the original owner who just parked it. I say that because the tstat was new and the wire loom has a date on the ECM plug of 2/13/11.

While my underhood time spans 7 decades I was completely out of the business during the initial switchover to computer controled engines. I have taught myself the OBDII but I am finding that that the ODBI is a different animal. The wrench has to do the things that they never put into the ECM. I am learning a lot that I hope to never need again.

Oh Eddie, if the chain jumped it would affect the ignition timing, but thanks anyway. The wierd thing is that it runs great. Good acceleration, smooth idle and no codes but it is so fat that if you let it idle for an extended length of time the new cat will start to glow.

Oh well, back to the garage and the automotive equivalant of that theological place of eternal punishment.

 

[Tiha]

You might be onto something with the ECT. At least worth looking at closer. On newer cars you can hook up a scan tool and see what the ECT is reading.

I know back in the day, Can't remember what engine, but they often would not start when they were cold. It was usually the ECT, unplug it and they would fire right up.

If it is not reading correctly I would imagine that would be affecting fuel delivery. Reading hotter than it should I would imagine leans it out?
Or reading colder than it should can make it run rich?

 

[wyo58]

OK guys, I am baaaaaaaack. Had too much building up on the to do list and needed a break anyway. I found an 89 ford emissions manual with all the pin outs in it. I have removed the wire looms and put them on a bench. I have traced every circuit and found nothing. The only change I have seen is that the circuit resistance has dropped from an average of 0.05/6 to 0.01/2 by spraying all the loom connectors with contact spray. (years of sitting in the desert?) I did open up the injector loom and found that the insulation they used on all the in loom connectors was desinigrating, so I cleaned them all up and taped them securely. Doesn't look like they were causing problems yet but how long??

Trying to find things in this book reminds me of why I started realizing that Ford was a 4 lertter word, but that is another subject. I am just about to tape up all the looms just to clean them up and reinstall and want to plug an ocilliscope to the PIP circuit to check the dist and can find nothing in the book about that. The only code it was setting when I quit was a 14 which is the PIP, ergo I need to check the dist. Changing the distributor did nothing to change the occasional code 14 but as previously stated the dist was changed and the new one acts the same as the original. Two doing the same thing is questionable but never say never.

I can also not find anything about testing an O2 sensor, but it seems that the O2 will set a code, so again who knows.

In my research I am finding that the coolant temp sensor can have a dramatic effect on fuel flow, and this thing does not warm up according to the gauge, so I replaced the sensor. I also replaced the gauge sender and tstat. I may be chasing a ghost from the original owner who just parked it. I say that because the tstat was new and the wire loom has a date on the ECM plug of 2/13/11.

While my underhood time spans 7 decades I was completely out of the business during the initial switchover to computer controled engines. I have taught myself the OBDII but I am finding that that the ODBI is a different animal. The wrench has to do the things that they never put into the ECM. I am learning a lot that I hope to never need again.

Oh Eddie, if the chain jumped it would affect the ignition timing, but thanks anyway. The wierd thing is that it runs great. Good acceleration, smooth idle and no codes but it is so fat that if you let it idle for an extended length of time the new cat will start to glow.

Oh well, back to the garage and the automotive equivalant of that theological place of eternal punishment.

A quick question on that 14 code. Are you using a scanner that can actually erase the code? It claims that a 14 code is set in continuous memory. Is it possible that you have never erased that code and it is still coming up from before you changed the distributor? Just a thought. As for running rich at idle, ECT, IAT, O2, and BPS could all cause that. also do you have the timing set to factory specs with the spout removed?

 

[grumpy old man]

Timing set with spout removed. Code 14 has been erased several times and if you drive it for around 15-20 freeway miles the cel will come on. As soon as you turn it off and restart the cel resets but there is a 14 in memory, so it is an intermittent problem. The worst kind of problem to diagnose is intermittent electrical.

I am not familiar enough with the system to state with any certainty but it seems to me that if the problem were pip related it would manifest itself in vehicle performance. This thing has no driveability issues. If it were not for the fact that I have seen it on the rollers and know how rich it is running, not just at idle but across the entire rpm range. By driving it I would conclude that it is fixed, but the rollers tell a different story. The last statement is the problem in a nutshell. It runs and drives beautifully but the emissions are more than 10 times the low side of the gross polluter specs.

Just for a reference point the first smog test it failed the 15 mph test because the nox was a few points over. It did pass the 25 mph test. From that point it elevated to the current status in a matter of less than 75 miles. The only change in that 75 miles was dropping about 5 degrees of initial timing.

From there the second test went to HC max 72 measured 360. CO% max 0.65 measured 9.64 but the nox actually dropped into an acceptable range. At that point I started throwing parts at it and with new MAP, O2, Dist, and Cat and injectors it actually went up slightly which is where it may be when I get it all together again.

 

[wyo58]

Timing set with spout removed. Code 14 has been erased several times and if you drive it for around 15-20 freeway miles the cel will come on. As soon as you turn it off and restart the cel resets but there is a 14 in memory, so it is an intermittent problem. The worst kind of problem to diagnose is intermittent electrical.

I am not familiar enough with the system to state with any certainty but it seems to me that if the problem were pip related it would manifest itself in vehicle performance. This thing has no driveability issues. If it were not for the fact that I have seen it on the rollers and know how rich it is running, not just at idle but across the entire rpm range. By driving it I would conclude that it is fixed, but the rollers tell a different story. The last statement is the problem in a nutshell. It runs and drives beautifully but the emissions are more than 10 times the low side of the gross polluter specs.

Just for a reference point the first smog test it failed the 15 mph test because the nox was a few points over. It did pass the 25 mph test. From that point it elevated to the current status in a matter of less than 75 miles. The only change in that 75 miles was dropping about 5 degrees of initial timing.

From there the second test went to HC max 72 measured 360. CO% max 0.65 measured 9.64 but the nox actually dropped into an acceptable range. At that point I started throwing parts at it and with new MAP, O2, Dist, and Cat and injectors it actually went up slightly which is where it may be when I get it all together again.

I think I would make sure the two temp sensors the ECT and the IAT are measuring correctly. Ford some where stated what the resistance should be on the sensor in relation to the actual temp is on the sensor. Cant remember where the IAT is on that engine, is it in the intake or the air box. If its in the air box that one should be pretty easy to check with outside air temp.

 

[wyo58]

I think I would make sure the two temp sensors the ECT and the IAT are measuring correctly. Ford some where stated what the resistance should be on the sensor in relation to the actual temp is on the sensor. Cant remember where the IAT is on that engine, is it in the intake or the air box. If its in the air box that one should be pretty easy to check with outside air temp.