89 Bronco II new to me

[grumpy old man]

In between the first smog test, which was only slightly over limit, and the second test which had elevated to gross polluter it developed the inermittent CEL. if the MAP makes it fo rich that sounds like the place to start. There are a ton on EBAY do I want to go with OEM Motorcraft, or is there an improved version?

 

[L\Bronco]

The guy I work with that is still in the business laughed out loud when I asked him if he had an OBD1 reader. Have not checked ebay to see if there might be one there. The check was KOEO, the minute you turn the engine off and back on the CEL is off. I tried reading it with the engine running and could not figure how. when I connected the jumper with the engine running the rpm's went way up and the test light would not flash.

On the subject of ebay, in one thread I was reading on code 14 someone mentioned a Rotunda TFI-IV. looked it up on ebay and there are a ton of them but since I do not know what I am looking for I did not bid on anything. Since this bronco will probably be in my life for years it likely that I should have both if I can find them.

Found directions for getting codes with a test light on troublecodes.net. They are quite silent on the 2.9 but their code list shows baro sensor for 14 and my Haynes manual shows pip circuit.

To say that I am getting confused is an understatement. Would it be worth replacing the MAP sensor just for giggles? We do have the unknown factor of what was affected during its many years of sitting in the desert heat. One other thing I have noticed is that when you are driving around, once the CEL comes on when you shut the engine off for a quick stop and then start driving again the CEL is a lot faster to trigger than from a cold start. could temperature be an issue.

O well will peruse ebay for a ford OBD1 reader. wish me luck.

Key on, engine running is done the same way engine off is done. Warm it up, re-start the engine, when the idle stabilizes, put your jumper in. It should rev up and flash 3 times (30), indicating a six cylinder processor)
then crank the steering wheel back and forth a couple times and press and release the brake pedal once the brake pedal once. (Do this within 20 seconds of initiating the test.)
It will stumble and surge a bit while it tests various circuits and after 30 or so seconds it will flash the mil once, immediately goose the throttle to WOT and back quickly. (It will check the knock sensor at this point. After it returns to idle it will start flashing the engine running codes. Don't shut it off until all the codes have finished.
Hope that helps.
Cheers

 

[grumpy old man]

I have had a few different readers for OBD1 over the years. I think they are all thrown away now. All they really do is make it easier. They count the flashes for you and give you an easy way to reset.
I use a test light now.

When meisk gets time I bet he has a great link for this stuff.

On the code discrepancy I usually find haynes to be wrong when there are two opinions.

Is the Map sensor hooked up? Vac line going to it in good shape? Is it on the right port?

Usually a bad map will make the engine run rich. But I supposed it could fail the other way and make it run lean.

Rotunda TFI-IV is an iginiton tester. Doesn't sound like you are having ignition issues.

Maybe I don't need the TFI-IV right now but since I anticipate having the Bronco in my life for years to come would it be adviseable to get one since they are in large supply and relatively cheap right now? Just need to know what I am looking for as there are different things on EBAY listed under TFI-IV

 

[L\Bronco]

Saw this on ebay
Cheers

 

[grumpy old man]

Thanks, have one on the way

 

[grumpy old man]

Replaced the O2 sensor and the cat figuring that might get it past smog. Started setting the CEL after driving it for 10 plus miles could not figure out the codes with a test light so got a code reader. Code 22 MAP. looked on ebay and found a Motorcraft figured lets go with OEM. Put it in and started it up it immediately triggered the CEL, code 22. Figured ***** it, Amazon had a Chinese MAP that they would send me the next day. Got it yesterday plugged it in codes all disappeared and tie reader showed 11 waited for a few seconds as the reader was still flashing showed a code 10 which as near as I can determine does not even exist. A few more flashes and it was back to 11. Figured OK lets go for test 3. No more was on the freeway and the CEL was back on code 14, lean at the O2 sensor.

Any suggestions other than selling it for scrap?

 

[Tiha]

So lean is a new code right?

It is tough when we replace so many parts to determine what is a faulty part and what is showing an actual problem.

Exhaust leaks, weak fuel pump, vacuum leaks. Cause lean conditions.

Seem to run fine?

 

[grumpy old man]

Yes the lean just popped up. However It seems that there is not consistency on what it means. The book that came with the new code reader says code 14 lean at O2 sensor but an internet search indicates it can also be a PIP problem. I am at the point of throwing parts at it until I hit the right one so I ordered a distributor.

I anticipated being done with this thing at least a month ago, My granddaughter is due home in a week and I still can't get the blasted thing smogged.

As for running fine it runs great, no issues at all.

I thought about just pulling the CEL bulb to pass smog but they have packed this thing so tight I can't figure out how to get to it.

I have managed to get exactly two things fixed this year. My daughters old Camry which her idiot boyfriend proceeded to total, and the dog!

As for fuel issues after sitting in the desert for an unknown time the fuel system was a total. replaced pump, filters, injectors, and flushed out everything else. There are no exhaust or vacuum leaks. The under hood hoses along with most of the rubber parts were replaced, and the exhaust gaskets were replaced because most of the exhaust system was disconnected to r&r the trans.

Will see what the distributor does to the equation.

 

[grumpy old man]

OK got the new distributor in, I am remembering why I hated Fords of this vintage. I believe the engineering department was instructed if you are engineering and can't figureout how to put it in the way of something else fing help. But I digress. The code reader flashes 11 which is good but if you wait for a while it will also flash a 41 before it stops reading. It also idles rich and will never pass smog that way. It also has a intermittent CEL when driving.
I did replace the injectors what is the possibility that I got a bad set that are leaking? Yes I am grasping at straws.

 

[Tiha]

Okay, just thinking outside the box a little here.

How old is the gasoline in this thing? Have you been putting cleaners or additives in?

The computer thinks it is lean, that is why it is running rich. Especially in open loop below 150 degree engine temp the O2 has more control on the engine fueling.

Since it seems the code comes and goes correct? Then it must be on the edge of good enough. But it sounds like it thinks it is lean, adding more fuel but really doesn't need more fuel.

 

[grumpy old man]

I like thinking outside the box, been doing it all my life. Makes sense. Question is why does it think it is lean, bad O2 sensor? One of the first and most valuable lessons I learned working on cars was just cause it is new does not mean it is good.

The gas is fresh, the fuel system was cooked by sitting in the desert. New pump, filters and injectors and tank flushed. A new symptom the last couple of days. When you shut it off it floods and has to crank a long time to start. This is new. Up until now it would fire on the first or second cylinder up.

Question is where is the extra fuel coming from? Pulled the vacuum line off of the pressure regulator and it is dry. Did I get a bad set of injectors?

It does take a long time for this thing to warm up, probably the t stat. I believe it came with a 160, should I bump that up to a 180?

For a guy who spent a good share of his time figuring out what others could not this is terminally frustrating. Problem is I got out of the business just as it was going to computer controls and I don't have the experience to fall back on.

 

[Tiha]

You could have a leaky injector. Can you put a fuel pressure gauge on it and watch the pressure after you shut it off?

hard to start when hot. In my experience this is usually fuel rail boiling, getting too hot.

You can try to cycle the key 3 or 4 times before cranking the engine. If it starts easier, good chance this is happening.

that would point to a couple causes. Weak fuel pump, pressure regulator, and of course injectors.

Myself honestly I have never had an injector leak that I know of. Had some bad pressure regulators. Had a few bad pumps out of the box.

Any way to verify they sent you the correct injectors? Didn't Ford color code them or something?

If it is easy to pull the rails, pop them out of the intake, injectors attached, cycle the key and see if any of them drip.

When the fuel boils in the rail, that will run lean. Because you are pumping fumes into the cylinder and not spraying gas.

Is the check engine light related to speed? Or stop lights? Like on a high hp acceleration is it running out of fuel and throws the light?
Or is it when the air stops moving under the hood like at a stop sign or stop light. When the air stops moving under the hood maybe the higher temps cause the fuel to boil in the rail?

just some more crazy thoughts to drive yourself insane with.

 

[grumpy old man]

Dont think that the fuel rail is boiling as engine temp, at least according to the gauge and what I have experienced opening the hood this thing is barely warm enough to evaporate acetone.

No dicernable pattern to the CEL.

When it starts hot it blows black and you can see black exhaust at idle.

As for driving me crazy there is a reason I am a GM guy. My personal driver is a 63 Pontiac convertible with the engine and trans out of a 15 Silverado

Never occurred to me to plug the fuel pressure gauge on it. Thanks

 

[L\Bronco]

Code 41 is low HEGO voltage, which indicates lean when the signal is real. A failed sensor will do the same, so will a bad HEGO ground. The O2 sensor signal grounds at the Blk\grn wire at the neg battery cable. There is a single pin connector in the BLK\Grn wire between the batt cable and the sensor. (see pict) It will have the blk\grn wire in it. They corrode internally causing a low O2 voltage that the PCM can mistake as lean.
However, this will only start once it enters closed loop.

A leaking injector will cause a flood after a hot soak, I would look at the ground, (disconnect it and inspect) put some dielectric grease in there. And follow Tiha's advice with the fuel pressure leakdown.
Hope that helps
Cheers

 

[grumpy old man]

Put the gauge on the test port and the pressure drops about a pound a minute. I pulled the plenum and the fuel rail energized the pump and #3 and 5 both drip. Not a steady drip but as long as you keep pressure on them they do drip. It has not been running for two days so if it is an issue of them being slow closing they have had two days to seat.

The ground on the O2 sensor sounds a lot like what I am experiencing.

Back to my own brand of that theological place of eternal punishment.

 

[wyo58]

Put the gauge on the test port and the pressure drops about a pound a minute. I pulled the plenum and the fuel rail energized the pump and #3 and 5 both drip. Not a steady drip but as long as you keep pressure on them they do drip. It has not been running for two days so if it is an issue of them being slow closing they have had two days to seat.

The ground on the O2 sensor sounds a lot like what I am experiencing.

Back to my own brand of that theological place of eternal punishment.

As much as you have done on the fuel system, tank, pump, filter and cleaned the existing lines. I fear something has broken free from inside the lines and ended up in a few of the injectors. Other than new lines (which probably don't exist any more?), may be the only way to get everything out of the system. at any rate you will have to replace those two injectors I'm afraid. Got luck, I think your finally close to wrapping this one up.

 

[grumpy old man]

While I am not going to dogmatically state that crap from inside the lines is not the culprit, I thought about that when I first started and checked the inside of the lines especially past the last filter and saw no trash of any kind. Having said that I spoke to a friend of a friend that knows a lot more about the early systems than either of us does and his suggestion was to chuck the original style injectors and put in Bosch. the oem's were ptoblematic from the start, (according to him) I am picking up a set in the morning. At this point I will try anything.

Having said that, Bronco, I need to know if the green wire with black dots at the O2 connector is the ground wire. It does not wire as you have described so I removed the right inner fender panel to get to the connector and plan to peel back the insulation slightly in order to solder on another wire for a secondary ground. It may not help but it can't hurt. The contacts in the connector are bright and not the least bit corroded but who knows where that wire actually grounds.

 

[L\Bronco]

While I am not going to dogmatically state that crap from inside the lines is not the culprit, I thought about that when I first started and checked the inside of the lines especially past the last filter and saw no trash of any kind. Having said that I spoke to a friend of a friend that knows a lot more about the early systems than either of us does and his suggestion was to chuck the original style injectors and put in Bosch. the oem's were ptoblematic from the start, (according to him) I am picking up a set in the morning. At this point I will try anything.

Having said that, Bronco, I need to know if the green wire with black dots at the O2 connector is the ground wire. It does not wire as you have described so I removed the right inner fender panel to get to the connector and plan to peel back the insulation slightly in order to solder on another wire for a secondary ground. It may not help but it can't hurt. The contacts in the connector are bright and not the least bit corroded but who knows where that wire actually grounds.

Sorry Grumpy, I can’t access my service info till morning, the black and green is the Hego ground allright. It should ground at the neg battery clamp. I’m not 100% sure that its black/ green all the way to the O2 sensor plug though. Ill look.
An extra ground wont hurt at all.
The factory injectors should be bosch.
I have had leaking issues with the “rebuilt” ones though. (Especially rock auto and Amazon)
Does it smoke black at Idle all the time? Or just for a few seconds after starting?

 

[grumpy old man]

The injectors were amazon ones, I am on my way over to pick up a set of Bosch. Come to find out that recently an injector shop opened within about 25 mi of me. An actual brick and mortar structure with real live people in it.

With the plenum and fuel manifold off it gave me a lot of room to peel tape and check the ground wire. It comes off the connector and goes into the injector wire loom. that loom plugs into a gray loom connector on the front of the RH valve cover. just ustream of that connector is an in-loom ground connector with about 5 wires in it. checked everything with an ohm meter and the resistance with everything plugged in from the O2 plug to the negative batt cable is .003. Put in a secondary ground just upstream of the O2 connector anyway.

I am dead tired of this thing and I will do 50 things if necessary putting it together this time so I hopefully hit the right one.

As for black smoke at idle, the second smog test when it went from almost passing to a gross polluter, I noticed when he started it up for the roller test that there was black smoke coming out of the tailpipe. My instant reaction was this is not a good sign. Little did I know!!

 

[grumpy old man]

Good news and bad. Got the injectoers in and it runs like a different car. runs smooth idles as smooth as your desktop and should pass smog. Long story but now I need to take it to a special smog station, ain't even going to go there. Runs great but still wants to trigger the occasional code 41. Plug in the code reader and it shows a code 11 which apparently means all is well but if you wait it will show a code 10 which I cannot find on any code chart and after the 10 it will show a 41. O2 sensor? it is new but if there is one defective in 10,000 I will get that one. Welcome to my life.