eddiej
New member
I did some checking and found that the 2.9 should use a 19# injector, if that helps.
89 Bronco II new to me
- Thread starter grumpy old man
- Start date
Disclaimer: Links on this page pointing to Amazon, eBay and other sites may include affiliate code. If you click them and make a purchase, we may earn a small commission.
grumpy old man
Active member
I am not sure what that is telling me.
eddiej
New member
Tiha's post #115 listed the color codes for the injectors based on the volume of fuel they can produce. His post indicated the 2.9 used a 14# injector (gray). I found a similar chart, but it stated 19# injectors (orange). In either case, they would be providing substantially less fuel than the 42# (light green) that you had installed if that chart is correct which would explain your running so rich. I moved a while ago and still haven't gotten things organized, but I will look for my extra injectors.
grumpy old man
Active member
I will have to go back and look for that, thanks
grumpy old man
Active member
Well I did some more research, not much else to do when you are in bed trying to recover from covid. As has been discussed the injectors were way off, took a little while for all the information to sink in. Don't know about anyone else but covid had a very negative effect on my ability to think. I took the injectors back and got a refund without any hassle while listening to the guy tell me how they have been using these injectors for years in this application blah blah blah. I had called Bosch and whoever I spoke to said two things, 1 if it is a Bosch injector it is wrong because Bosch has not made an injector for the 2.9 for 14 years. 2 the injector I have is calibrated for a BMW and without even looking it up he stated categorically that a BMW injector calibration is not even close to what the 2.9 requires for a multitude of reasons.
I spoke to a friend of a friend who still works on the old stuff and his recommendation was to use rebuilts from GB remanufacturing. His opinion is that any newly manufactured injector has combined several similar injectors into one unit and let the ECM sort it out, while GB will only rebuild factory injectors so the unit is properly calibrated for the application. Don't know if he is right or wrong but it made sense so I ordered some.
Will report when I get them in and see what happens. If it smogs everyone is invited to the party, bring your own covid mask.
I spoke to a friend of a friend who still works on the old stuff and his recommendation was to use rebuilts from GB remanufacturing. His opinion is that any newly manufactured injector has combined several similar injectors into one unit and let the ECM sort it out, while GB will only rebuild factory injectors so the unit is properly calibrated for the application. Don't know if he is right or wrong but it made sense so I ordered some.
Will report when I get them in and see what happens. If it smogs everyone is invited to the party, bring your own covid mask.
I had covid at Christmas so I'm good. Don't know about you but this time was the worst. At least the first 24 hours I was just miserable after that it wasn't too bad.
Interesting about Bosch and it makes sense, if there is no application currently available then why would they still make injectors? How many years are they required to support the repair market?
run into that all the time with different things. They just don't make them.
One thing I came across, not to add to your confusion, but the 302 or 5.0 of that era supposedly used the same injector. I was reading about guys needing and injector and grabbing them out of junk 5.0 that were readily available.
Interesting about Bosch and it makes sense, if there is no application currently available then why would they still make injectors? How many years are they required to support the repair market?
run into that all the time with different things. They just don't make them.
One thing I came across, not to add to your confusion, but the 302 or 5.0 of that era supposedly used the same injector. I was reading about guys needing and injector and grabbing them out of junk 5.0 that were readily available.
grumpy old man
Active member
This was my first and hopefully last encounter with covid. My covid symptoms were joint ache and chills followed by chest congestion. Frankly I have had worse chest colds. It was the collapsed lung that put me in the hospital. But I digress. I have no doubt that the 302 injector was calibrated close enough to work but the two oldest Ford part numbers I came across traced to 89 2.9 only. For whatever that may be worth those numbers went to two different Motorcraft numbers.
This may be why there is so much emphasis placed upon flow matching. Mario may be onto something that many similar applications have been incorporated into one injector and the ECM is left to compensate as much as possible.
On another note. Every time I have pulled the plenum off there is oil in the front two ports. It appears to be sucked in from the PCV valve. The valve appears to be new, possibly the wrong valve?
This may be why there is so much emphasis placed upon flow matching. Mario may be onto something that many similar applications have been incorporated into one injector and the ECM is left to compensate as much as possible.
On another note. Every time I have pulled the plenum off there is oil in the front two ports. It appears to be sucked in from the PCV valve. The valve appears to be new, possibly the wrong valve?
eddiej
New member
If that oil is coming from the PCV valve, pull and check the valve cover to see if the baffle is still in place.
Did you notice a lot of blow-by when it was running? Have you done a leak down and a compression test on that engine?
Did you notice a lot of blow-by when it was running? Have you done a leak down and a compression test on that engine?
grumpy old man
Active member
The engine has little blowby, only has 68,000 on the clock, and with it idling it pulls a slight vacuum on the return side. What you can see through the pcv valve hole the baffle is in place, I was wondering if the valve opens too far under load when the vacuum drops. doing an ebay search similar looking valves show as not fitting the 2.9. Maybe I will just get a valve from Ford parts and see what happens, or pull the cover and have a look, or both
PCV is only supposed to open at a certain inches of vacuum.
That is regulated by a spring inside the pcv.
how much quality control do you think goes into checking to see if that spring opens at 3"hg or 16" hg?
In other words being out of spec off the shelf is pretty normal.
That is regulated by a spring inside the pcv.
how much quality control do you think goes into checking to see if that spring opens at 3"hg or 16" hg?
In other words being out of spec off the shelf is pretty normal.
grumpy old man
Active member
Thanks, another issue on this thing. I have never been involved with a car having more weird issues. I am sure that if I pull the cover I can figure out a way to pull the oil out of the air before it gets to the valve. Thinking back to when I first got this thing running, all six plugs had identical heavy oil deposits on the plugs which I thought to be extremely weird. Guess it now makes sense.
All these years I never gave the PCV much thought other than seeing engines with a lot of miles blowing oil because the valve was plugged. Wonder what "I never saw that before" is waiting for me under the cover. I am feeling good enough that I think I will find out in the morning.
Learning a lot of stuff that I hope to never need again in my life.
All these years I never gave the PCV much thought other than seeing engines with a lot of miles blowing oil because the valve was plugged. Wonder what "I never saw that before" is waiting for me under the cover. I am feeling good enough that I think I will find out in the morning.
Learning a lot of stuff that I hope to never need again in my life.
grumpy old man
Active member
The deeper I get into this thing the more convinced I am that I am chasing someone else's ghost(s). As previously mentioned there is a 2011 date written on the ECM connector. Pulled the RH valve cover and the first thing I noticed was shims under the valve springs, why were the heads off at a lot less less than 68K . I am convinced looking at the vehicle that the mileage is accurate. Was someone else chasing oil consumption? I did start it up with the cover off and there is no oil flying around under there, and no crankcase smoke. I did add to the baffling and purchased a PCV from Ford. They did not have it on the shelf so apparently it is vehicle specific.
Running it without the valve cover the PCV is just swinging in the breeze and it sounds like it is passing a lot of air. I plan on running it with the new valve unplugged and see how much air it is passing. Thinking about the PCV if it was passing more air than needed it was essentially a vacuum leak and I have heard from more than one source that the induction system is quite sensitive to vacuum leaks. If it was passing too much air could that be the reason it failed the first smog test? Or have I been chasing this so long that I am overthinking everything now?
By the time I got the PCV and gaskets I was wiped out and took a nap. Will be back at it tomorrow AM.
Running it without the valve cover the PCV is just swinging in the breeze and it sounds like it is passing a lot of air. I plan on running it with the new valve unplugged and see how much air it is passing. Thinking about the PCV if it was passing more air than needed it was essentially a vacuum leak and I have heard from more than one source that the induction system is quite sensitive to vacuum leaks. If it was passing too much air could that be the reason it failed the first smog test? Or have I been chasing this so long that I am overthinking everything now?
By the time I got the PCV and gaskets I was wiped out and took a nap. Will be back at it tomorrow AM.
eddiej
New member
We need to help you get this thing running good before your grand-daughter looses interest in it...
Some of the early 2.9's had head problems. Seems to me the valve seats on mine were destroyed so I replaced both heads when I rebuilt the engine some years back. I couldn't tell you what brand or who the supplier was at that time, but I know it was not OEM Ford. Perhaps your previous owner ran into some head trouble as well (you mentioned shims).
I'd be curious how yours would run if you completely removed the PCV valve and plugged the PCV hose. That would (or should) eliminate it as being a source of a vacuum leak. Typically a vacuum leak makes it run lean which could increased engine RPM but yield less power. However, the computer may pick up on the lean condition and just add fuel by initiating a longer injector pulse width which would also increase RPM's.
Have you replaced those high lb. injectors with the smaller ones?
Some of the early 2.9's had head problems. Seems to me the valve seats on mine were destroyed so I replaced both heads when I rebuilt the engine some years back. I couldn't tell you what brand or who the supplier was at that time, but I know it was not OEM Ford. Perhaps your previous owner ran into some head trouble as well (you mentioned shims).
I'd be curious how yours would run if you completely removed the PCV valve and plugged the PCV hose. That would (or should) eliminate it as being a source of a vacuum leak. Typically a vacuum leak makes it run lean which could increased engine RPM but yield less power. However, the computer may pick up on the lean condition and just add fuel by initiating a longer injector pulse width which would also increase RPM's.
Have you replaced those high lb. injectors with the smaller ones?
L\Bronco
Well-known member
Hey Grumpy, hope you are feeling better. I must have missed some posts while I was off racing, did they really sell you green injectors for your 2.9?
Those are the ones my lightning .l in my frankenBronco came with. I had to change them to 30lb\hr aftermarkets to get it to run without black smoke. I believe your smog issue is directly related to the injector volume. As far as PCV goes, it should open at 10"hg (Medium load). Aftermarket ones often have an orifice that is too large causing oil consumption. (Good call on the Ford one)
Id be cautious about the engine condition as well. See how the new PCV and correct injectors work. With it running pig rich, the vacuum will be low anyway, and the valve will be at full flow most of the time anyways.
Let us know how it fairs with the new injectors.
Cheers
grumpy old man
Active member
OK got the GB reman injectors in to no avail. HC went up slightly CO went down slightly. With that big a change in injector calibration I definitely expected to see a measurable difference and nothing. It is obviously calling for rich, question is why. I am now going down the road of throwing parts at it out of terminal frustration. I am starting with a Cardone reman ECM, and another new O2 sensor. Have a friend in upstate NY who checked with his Ford people and the response was Cardone, never had a bad one.
It is still setting the occasional code 14. I do have a cheesy hand held oscilloscope but can not figure out how to connect it to the PIP circuit. I found an 89 Ford emissions manual but it offers no useful information. It shows how to connect it through a break out box but I haven't found one yet. There are a ton of them on ebay but I can't find one for the 2.9.
Never thought about driving it with a vacuum gauge connected, the way it runs my gut says the vacuum is good. It runs great with minimal throttle, so will put it back together today and connect the vacuum gauge for a short spin around the block.
I usually feel pretty good in the AM but it is short lived. I have a good hour or so then I am back in the tank.
Will let you know about the vacuum.
It is still setting the occasional code 14. I do have a cheesy hand held oscilloscope but can not figure out how to connect it to the PIP circuit. I found an 89 Ford emissions manual but it offers no useful information. It shows how to connect it through a break out box but I haven't found one yet. There are a ton of them on ebay but I can't find one for the 2.9.
Never thought about driving it with a vacuum gauge connected, the way it runs my gut says the vacuum is good. It runs great with minimal throttle, so will put it back together today and connect the vacuum gauge for a short spin around the block.
I usually feel pretty good in the AM but it is short lived. I have a good hour or so then I am back in the tank.
Will let you know about the vacuum.
L\Bronco
Well-known member
What is the timing set at? I read earlier that it has been checked and rechecked, just trying to catch up here. Thanks
Can you measure voltage at the black wire on the O2 sensor (DGrn/P in the harness side of the sensor plug. Measure with the sensor plugged in and engine running. Red lead on the O2 sig wire (the black one on the sensor) and the black lead on the neg batt post. it will show you what the PCM sees for the O2 signal. (less than .5 volts DC = lean and a rich command is given, above .45 VDC is rich and a lean command is given)
Might give a clue to whats going on.
Cheers
Last edited:
grumpy old man
Active member
Timing is at 11 degrees. Set it at 10 and it moved a degree when I locked it down.
Your instructions are a little confusing, less than .5V is lean and above .45V is rich? What am I missing?
Will get under the hood in the AM. Had to catch up on some running around and I am wiped out. Nap time!
Suggestions on O2 sensor? Bosch, Denso, Motorcraft or ? Don't give a damn about price just want something that has the best chance of working.
Your instructions are a little confusing, less than .5V is lean and above .45V is rich? What am I missing?
Will get under the hood in the AM. Had to catch up on some running around and I am wiped out. Nap time!
Suggestions on O2 sensor? Bosch, Denso, Motorcraft or ? Don't give a damn about price just want something that has the best chance of working.
You are not really looking for a .5v or .45v reading, the reading should be constantly changing. Swinging from rich to lean. You will probably see more like .7v or .2v.
I know what you are saying, It should be Rich above .5 volt and lean below .5v Or Rich above .45v and lean below .45v Don't focus on that part.
Honestly I have had good luck with the universal Denso units, like the cheapest ones they make. But then I am pretty confident that when i replaced them the O2 sensor was never really my problem.
I know what you are saying, It should be Rich above .5 volt and lean below .5v Or Rich above .45v and lean below .45v Don't focus on that part.
Honestly I have had good luck with the universal Denso units, like the cheapest ones they make. But then I am pretty confident that when i replaced them the O2 sensor was never really my problem.
L\Bronco
Well-known member
1 degree of timing shouldn't do anything meaningful.
Sorry, not enough coffee. On the O2 reading, good would be quickly switching between high (above .45v) and low (below.45v) My 4 key is intermittent so they should have both been .45. sorry
Yours will either be always low (below .45v) (Indicating that the PCM is commanding rich because the O2 signal always says lean) (Indicating a bad O2 sensor or wiring)
Or always high (above .45v) The sensor value matches what is actually happening, (the high CO shows that it is really rich.), indicating a mechanical reason for rich. Injector flow rate too high, fuel pressure high or PCM malfunction. (The PCM can't compensate.)
If it was newer, you could watch fuel trim and see what is happening, but, as you said, "the wrench has more to do here"
Hope that is more clear.
Cheers
Last edited:
grumpy old man
Active member
Just discovered the Thexton 126 for Ford EECIV. Supposedly will work on my 2.9. Found one on ebay for an OK price is scheduled for arrival on or before 1/30. should make probing and prying much easier. I said the heck with it and ordered a reman Cardone ECM and another O2 sensor. The ECM and the intake air temp sensor are the only parts that have not been changed and the ECM is the only part that has not been checked (don't have the necessary equipment). Hopefully the combination of the three will eventually get me to where I need to be.
Just got back from the Dr. and she gave me the good and bad news. The brain fog and the constant lack of energy are normal post covid symptoms and will be diminishing as I progress back to normal. Bad news is that it will probably take 3 months give or take. As soon as I got back I sat down on the couch and shortly was in a two hour nap. Welcome to my world.
As I have nothing to do on the B2 I was in the trunk of my Pontiac. The fuel gauge has been bad for almost a year but have had much on the to do list more important. Spent about half an hour digging and pulling on the back loom and the gauge worked for a short trip and then fell to E again. At least I know the general problem area. The signal wire comes through the trunk floor just above the sender, into the rear loom. Thinking about it since I can get to the wire within 6 inches of the sender terminal and can get to the plug on the back of the fuel gauge think I will just string a new wire. Don't need to get under the car at all.
Will plug the Thexton into the existing ECM to see where I am at and post progress reports. Back to the Pontiac trunk.
Just got back from the Dr. and she gave me the good and bad news. The brain fog and the constant lack of energy are normal post covid symptoms and will be diminishing as I progress back to normal. Bad news is that it will probably take 3 months give or take. As soon as I got back I sat down on the couch and shortly was in a two hour nap. Welcome to my world.
As I have nothing to do on the B2 I was in the trunk of my Pontiac. The fuel gauge has been bad for almost a year but have had much on the to do list more important. Spent about half an hour digging and pulling on the back loom and the gauge worked for a short trip and then fell to E again. At least I know the general problem area. The signal wire comes through the trunk floor just above the sender, into the rear loom. Thinking about it since I can get to the wire within 6 inches of the sender terminal and can get to the plug on the back of the fuel gauge think I will just string a new wire. Don't need to get under the car at all.
Will plug the Thexton into the existing ECM to see where I am at and post progress reports. Back to the Pontiac trunk.
