86 Bronco II needs help

[maq]

The only real problems I've ever had since I bought it in '88 with 20,000 miles were all fuel related.  Now, with 142,00 miles the fuel related issues - I think- are tricking all my local mechanics up.

At 80,000 miles in '95 the engine seized from a "gas lock". Had it repaired, but later saw and left alone a tiny leak from the valve cover gasket.

Last summer it wouldn't restart if I shut it off for a very short time..it was flooded and would start after letting it sit for 20 min or so. So I had the fuel filter replaced. That went away till this summer and it began again..A mechanice sugeggested a stuck fuel jet but also noticed and thought I had overfilled my oil - not so. Took it to Walmart for an oil change and fuel system cleanout.   All this time the car actually ran fine and even idled fine - I don't drive it much so checked the battery.

Walmart saidf the oil was overfilled by 3 quarts. I did notice a longer pattern of drips on the ground as they ran down the center of the rear.  Walmart thinks its a rear diff. leak and a transfer case leak ..??- as well as an oil leak. 

During Walmarts fuel cleanout they said the car ran fine..then suddenly ran out of gas. We gave it 5 gallons. But they couldn't get the car started again..

My mechanic that did the fuel filter picked it up ..and of course it started fine  and hasn't died out. Fuel pump pressure was 32, so not fining anything else they gave it back.   Now I notice driving it home it's running rough..sputtering ..

Here I have to say I'm disabled and don't have a big budget so they were trying to help.

Was that gas in the oil??  I saw the dipstick and it was low on real oil, but clear up higher.  So I began worrying about another "gas lock"?? 

Don't know where to look now for whatever is wrong.. Don't feel safe with that coughing and sputtering..??

Any ideas are desperately needed??  Could sell it but need to know the problem..

 

[miesk5]

yo MAQ,

Do you have a carb or Electronic Fuel Injection (EFI) in that engine?

You should get some gas aroma from the dipstick or in oil.

Any oil in coolant?

any smoke from exhaust?

Blue/Gray Smoke: Blue/gray exhaust smoke is an indication of oil burning in the combustion chamber. These are possible symptoms and causes:

Valve Seals: Leaking valve seals will cause blue/gray smoke at startup because oil leaks past the seals into the cylinder after the engine shuts down.

Valve Guides: Excessive clearance between the valve stem and the valve guide allows oil to leak past the gap into the cylinder.

Piston Rings: Worn or damaged piston rings will cause blow-by resulting in blue/gray smoke.

Worn Cylinder Walls: Worn cylinder walls cause blow-by resulting in blue/gray smoke.

PCV System: A stuck closed PCV valve will cause excessive crankcase pressure resulting in blue/gray smoke.

Black Smoke: Black exhaust smoke is an indication of a rich fuel condition. These are possible causes:

Fuel Injectors: A leaking or dripping fuel injector will cause a rich fuel condition.

Fuel Pressure Regulator: A stuck closed fuel pressure regulator will cause a rich fuel condition.

Fuel Return: A restricted fuel return line will cause a rich fuel condition.

White/Gray Smoke: White exhaust smoke is an indication that coolant is burning in the combustion chamber. These are possible causes:

Cylinder Head: A crack in the cylinder head (around the coolant jacket) will cause coolant to enter the combustion chamber.

Engine Block: A crack in the deck of an engine block near the coolant jacket will cause coolant to enter the combustion chamber.

Head Gasket: A damaged or blown head gasket will cause coolant to enter the combustion chamber resulting in white/gray smoke coming from the tailpipe.

if carburetor, see https://web.archive.org/web/20050309013952/http://www.recarbco.com/technical/newtrouble.html

If EFI,suspect Fuel Pressure Regulator (FPR)). Pull vacuum hose off the FPR and any signs of gas or Gas AROMA, replace that FRP bec, it's internal diaphram is busted.

Vacuum Gauge Readings, Interpretation

http://www.diesel-dave.com/vehic/manual/stj/stj30013.htm

Have compression checked; pull one plug @ a time & inspect plugs to determine which one(s) is not firing/saturated with oil

 

[Rons beast]

Hey Maq, Welcome.

Sorry to hear about the problems with your ride. I have read through your post a few times and quite frankly it has me scratching my head.

Some of the diagnosis makes no sense, and can actually be mechanically impossible.

If there was a "stuck fuel jet"  (I'm assuming this is a stuck injector)  you would have a CEL, and black exhaust smoke with a strong fuel smell. you indicated none of this...and it still would not cause a no start problem.

The 3qts over filled oil is a wonder. A shop that cannot diagnose what is leaking is one that should be avoided.

Walmart couldn't get the car started again?    Again avoid that shop.

What you have described as a hard to start or no start problem when the engine is warmed up is a classic case of Ign. module overheating causing no spark. As the module heats it can sometimes "misfire" and cause rough idle and running.

If you crank the engine long enough there could be a smell of unburned fuel.  A good tech would check for spark before declaring a "flooding" condition or "gas lock"   whatever that is?

My best advice is check if you actually have spark the next time your engine won't start. If unable to do that yourself call an qualified repair center with ACE certified techs.  

Good Luck

 

[maq]

Thanks guys for the detailed troubleshooting efforts. My Dad always told me to trust my car to guys like you, but haven't found one here.

Probably gave more info than needed but didn't know if it connected.

Some answers to your questions:

NO carb, just injectors. Recently put in new fuel filter and just had oil change and fuel system cleaning at Walmart- they're the ones who stated the oil was "overfilled by 3 quarts". It wasn't oil - I saw the dipstick just days before Walmart had it and I did see that it was low on real oil but I also saw a clear 3 inch shine from some other fluid above the oil..  Didn't really get a gas aroma from it.

No tailpipe smoke just a bit from the engine area from a few drips of oil from an old leaking valve cover gasket.

Rons beast - I think you've nailed it!! You describe the behavior accurately so I went online to learn about the part itself. I found this website you might be interested in too:  http://www.autosafety.org/ford-tfi-module-national-class-settlement

I heard about their recall on the bad paint but never this part.

What they describe is also dead on - the car has been dieing out every now and then for years.  It seems the heating and then cooling down explains exactly the starting and non-starting times.  So the TFI or Ignition Module seems to be the culprit.  /emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

Could you reccommend exactly which part to buy - I have the four main parts store to choose from.. But wouldn't want them to pick it for me.

One last question though: Do you see any connection to the extra fluid in the oil??

Thanks again !!

 

[miesk5]

yo MAQ,

Ron did a great Job, again!

btw, what engine do you have? 2.9?

and confirm if it is;

Dura Spark II Ignition System



Should the ignition system become operative during the tests and a repair has not been made to the system, it is likely an intermittent connection or component has become functional. Try to duplicate the problem with the engine running, by wiggling the wires at the coil, module, distributor and other harness connections, preferably the connections that have been disturbed during the test proceedings. Check all ground connections, especially within the distributor. Disconnecting and connecting connectors may also help.

Heating Components For Tests

With the engine running, heat the module by placing a 250 watt heat lamp bulb approximately 1-2 in. from the module top surface.

WARNING; This procedure should not heat the module over 212°F (100°C). After the first 10 minutes of heating, check the temperature by applying a few drops of water on the module housing. Repeat the check every one to two minutes until the water droplets boil.

Tapping the module may be helpful, but do not tap hard enough to damage or distort the housing. If this procedure results in an ignition malfunction, substitute, but do not install, a known good module. If the ignition malfunction is corrected by the substitution, reinstall the original module and recheck. Replace the module as required.

.....

OR

EEC-IV/TFI-IV Electronic

The distributor ignition system designed by Ford has two distinct configurations. The first configuration is known as the distributor mounted system, because the ICM is mounted directly on the distributor housing. The second configuration is known as a remote mount system, since the ICM is mounted on the engine or front fender apron.

The distributor used by this system is sealed and houses the CMP sensor. The distributor does not utilize vacuum or centrifugal advance mechanisms; the ignition timing is automatically controlled by the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) and the ICM.

Ford calls this electronic ignition the Thick Film Integrated-IV (TFI-IV) ignition system. The TFI module is also known as the Ignition Control Module (ICM), which reports engine position and rpm to the PCM. The PCM then determines the proper spark timing and advance, and returns a reference signal to tell the TFI module to switch the coil, thereby creating a spark. The PCM used on these vehicles is referred to by Ford as the Electronic Engine Control-IV (EEC-IV) module.

Distributor Mounted Module

1.Disconnect the negative battery cable.

2.Remove the distributor assembly from the engine.

3.Place the distributor on the workbench and remove the module retaining screws. Pull the right side of the module down the distributor mounting ****** and back up to disengage the module terminal from the connector in the distributor base. The module may be pulled toward the ****** and away from the distributor.

NOTE: Do not attempt to lift the module from the mounting surface, except as explained above. The pins will break at the distributor module connector.

To install:

4.Coat the base plate of the TFI ignition module uniformly with 1 ⁄ 32 inch of silicone dielectric compound WA-10 or equivalent.

5.Position the module on the distributor base mounting ******. Carefully position the module toward the distributor bowl and engage the three connector pins securely.

6.Install the retaining screws. Tighten to 15–35 inch lbs. (1.7–4.0 Nm), starting with the upper right *****.

7.Install the distributor into the engine. Install the cap and wires.

8.Reconnect the negative battery cable.

9.Recheck the initial timing. Adjust if necessary

================

Most prefer Ford Motorcraft Ignition control module (ICM) and distributor (incl. Distributor Pickup Coil (aka Hall Effect OR Profile Ignition Pick-up (PIP) Signal OR Stator O RPM)

Here is Ford's parts site;

http://www.fordparts.com/Commerce/PartDetail.aspx?n=jlvMe3KtY2RJ7JLMwPyd6g%3d%3d&id=293056876&m=2&search=true&year=1986&make=Ford&model=Bronco+II

************* CONFIRM ALL w/LOCAL DEALER **************

1986 Ford Bronco II Parts

Part Name: Ignition Control Module

Brand: Motorcraft

Part Number: 12A297(DY-1074)

Price: $203.93

Or Select a dealer for their prices and availability

Part Description: 2.9L 177 CID 6 Cylinders; w/ Distributor Mounted Module

Quantity Per Vehicle: 1

Weight: 0.15

Dimensions: 1 x 1.75 x 4.5

========================

OR:

WELLS is VG Brand and may have been Ford's ICM supplier back in the day/

http://www.amazon.com/Wells-F121-Ignition-Control-Module/dp/B000BYESN0/ref=sr_1_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1412122123&vehicle=1987-54-634------------2-0&sr=1-1&ymm=1987%3Aford%3Abronco+ii&keywords=12A297++ford+ignition+module

Wells F121 Ignition Control Module

Be the first to review this item

Price: $65.02 & FREE Shipping. Details

Only 1 left in stock (more on the way).

Want it Thursday, Oct. 2? Order within 30 hrs 28 mins and choose One-Day Shipping at checkout. Details

Sold by Amazon.com.

•The ignition control module controls the "on" time of the ignition coil's primary winding

•When not replaced, vehicle could experience no or hard start, long crank time, misfire, and poor fuel economy

•Designed to meet or exceed OE specifications in form, fit and function

•Global coverage for import and/or domestic applications

OEM Part Number 5U2Z-12A297-C

_______________

OR:

STANDARD MOTOR PRODUCTS Part # LX218

 

[miesk5]

yo MAQ,

Also, have you tried a Self Test for Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTC)s by my pal, BroncoJoe19

http://broncozone.com/topic/14269-code-reader/?pid=74587&mode=threaded

A helper is good to assist in reading Codes best is to take a cell fone vid and replay it.

Some basics;

Visual Check

1.Inspect the air cleaner and inlet ducting.

2.Check all engine vacuum hoses for damage, leaks, cracks, blockage, proper routing, etc.

3.Check EEC system wiring harness for proper connections, bent or broken pins, corrosion, loose wires, proper routing, etc.

4.Check the Powertrain Control Module (PCM), sensors and actuators for physical damage. I see tPS, etc was replaced...

5.Check the engine coolant for proper level and mixture.

6.Check the transmission fluid level and quality. See E4OD Fluid Condition Check Below)

7.Make all necessary repairs before continuing

8. Check headlights

The engine temperature must be greater than 50° F for the Key On Engine Off (KOEO) Self-Test and greater than 180° F for the Key On Engine Running (KOER) Self-Test.

Run it around to heat the engine up and shift thru all gears including Reverse.

Make sure A/C is off and transmission is in Park (automatic); or in Neutral for a Manual & release clutch.

Turn off all accessories; radio, lights, A/C, heater, blower, fans, etc. (close driver's door)

Then turn off engine and wait 10 seconds.

Do KOEO test First

Post Code(s) here according to:

KOEO

&

KOER

Self Test connector in 85-86 EFI is on the "right side" (passenger) behind a black EGR Vacuum Reservoir

see pic by Ryan M at http://web.archive.org/web/20130705235634im_/http://oldfuelinjection.com/images/selftest03.jpg

The Self-Test is divided into three specialized tests: Key On Engine Off Self-Test, Engine Running Self-Test, and Continuous Self-Test. The Self-Test is not a conclusive test by itself, but is used as a part of the functional Quick-Test diagnostic procedure. The PCM stores the Self-Test program in permanent memory. When activated, Self-Test checks the EEC system by testing memory integrity and processing capability, and verifies that various sensors and actuators are connected and operating properly.

The Key On Engine Off and Engine Running Self-Tests are functional tests which only detect faults present at the time of the Self-Test. Continuous Self-Test is performed during normal vehicle operation and stores any fault information in Keep Alive Memory (KAM) for retrieval at a later time.

Key On Engine Off Self-Test

At this time, a test of the EEC system is conducted with power applied and engine at rest.

To detect errors during Key On Engine Off Self-Test, the fault must be present at the time of testing.

Continuous Memory DTCs are issued as a result of information stored during Continuous Self-Test, while the vehicle was in normal operation. These DTCs are displayed only during Key On Engine Off Self-Test and after the separator pulse. Intermittent faults that have not occurred in the last 80 warm-up cycles (40 cycles on some applications) are erased from Continuous Memory and will not produce a Continuous Memory DTC.Note: The separator pulse and Continuous Memory DTCs follow Key On Engine Off DTCs ONLY.

Engine Running Self-Test

At this time, a test of the EEC system is conducted with the engine running. The sensors are checked under actual operating conditions and at normal operating temperatures. The actuators are exercised and checked for expected results.

 

[maq]

Working on finding someone for the next phase/s..  Thanks again!!

But one nagging question is could the problems have caused the extra fluid in the oil??  Have read that some fluid would not be abnormal in a poorly running vehicle..??

 

[Rons beast]

Hey Maq,

What are the next Phases?

The engine would have to be running horridly poor with a few dead cylinders dumping unburned fuel to have that much fuel in the oil.

It is likely that the "fluid" is something else, like coolant.  Possibly Water from condensation, but that would take the right conditions over a long time.

 

[miesk5]

yo,

MAQ,

Do you have someone to watch the tail pipe when you first start through driving around the hood and look for any smoke. An empty parking lot is a good place to do a 360 around helper so you can accelerate and then idle, and back to accel.



When first starting a cold engine, you will see condensation dripping from tail pipe or muffler "weep" hole if it has such.

rotten egg smell when the engine is running is burning sulfur smell that is a clear symptom of a catalytic converter issue, or damage in the emission control system. It may also mean that your engine is running with a rich air/fuel mixture.

******* sweet odor (maple syrup aroma) is due to a leak in the coolant system is from ethylene glycol leak that can occur when the engine has warmed up or if it is shut off. Ethylene glycol can come from several places, including a failed intake manifold gasket, heater hose, radiator hose, or failed cylinder head. If the maple syrup smell is very strong outside of the car, then you probably have a radiator cap that is leaking. If the smell is particularly strong inside the car then there is a problem with the heater core

and what you already addressed:

exhaust smells like Gas is normally problem with air/fuel mixture; fuel injector may be sending too much gas through the engine and not all is burning

gas smell in the oil of your car could be a serious problem. If the fuel line is leaking or the injectors are leaking gas, it can get into the crankcase. If this happens your oil will smell like gas. Pulling out the dipstick and giving it a sniff should confirm gasoline in your oil.

Worst case in terms of mistakes; I recall when out of NAV Hospital, had to get an oil change @ local gas station - owner's son did the job, but forgot to replace filter... Nova was on lift... he dropped it to fill crankcase, had an auto shut-off on oil fill hose.. kept on filling, then his dad yelled, "STOP"; oil was puddeling on floor. Dad put filter on told son to re-fill. Son was dazed with embarrassment, and grabbed the water fill hose...

Dad saw that too and gave me a ride home so he could flush engine an finish other work.