351w starting problems (weird)

[wolf83]

i just bought a non-running donor vehicle -- 86 f150 351w 2wd -- and i am trying to start it.

i had the starter tested -- good.

i had the battery tested -- good.

i cleaned the battery terminals and tightened all wire connections.

i turned the key over and pumped the gas (not efi). within 10 seconds the motor fired up and was running as long as i was giving it some gas. after about 5 seconds of giving it moderate amounts of gas (depressing the gas pedal), i took my foot off the gas pedal to let it idle. it then immediately died.

i proceeded to crank the starter to get it started up again, but this time the starter just spun rapidly.

it sounds to me as if the starter is not making contact with the flywheel -- but i am not sure.

now, when i turn the key to start it, it makes the same fast spinning sound, and i look at the fan to see if it is moving and it is not.

my haynes manual is no help for this problem. any thoughts?

more detail about the starter -- i took it off to have it tested. this starter is a new reman starter from autozone. there is no grease or road grime on it. it appears to me that the seller had this same problem and thought it was his starter so he had the starter replaced, but he was not able to start it.

if you have an idea for me, then please walk me through it like i am 12. i am comfortable under the hood -- just not that comfortable. but i want to do the work myself, so i figure i'll be a shade tree expert 6 months from now.

ideas?

thanks in advance, W.

 

[wolf83]

i just got it started by doing the following:

while my wife was in the cab waiting for my signal, i got under the truck (it's on ramps) and used a pry bar to push against the starter. i put the pry bar in between the starter and the oil pan and pulled -- forcing the starter (because of leverage) to push itself into the flywheel. while i held this position, i had my wife start it. this worked -- it started right up!

here's my guess... i think the starter's pinion drive is not making contact with the flywheel. that is -- i think the teeth of the starter are too short to connect into the grooves of the teeth on the flywheel.

perhaps i have the wrong size starter?

can anyone guess what's wrong? should i see about getting a larger starter? maybe the seller i bought the truck from put the wrong size on it? that seems kind of weird to me... could starter sizes be that close?

help! i need some ideas!

thanks, W.

 

[Jimmy Neutron]

The best way I can think of to check your starter out is to take it off and take it back into the store. Look for part numbers to match to their system. Also have them look up starters for your truck, pull it off the shelf and do a visual comparison. Even if it is a different brand, it should look the same.

Your flexplate/flywheel could be shot. If the ring gear looks chewed up at all it could need replacement. I have seen starters take out flywheels and flexplates when they go bad!

It sounds like you have a vacuum leak. That would account for the constant need of extra fuel...

 

[wolf83]

The best way I can think of to check your starter out is to take it off and take it back into the store. Look for part numbers to match to their system. Also have them look up starters for your truck, pull it off the shelf and do a visual comparison. Even if it is a different brand, it should look the same.
Your flexplate/flywheel could be shot. If the ring gear looks chewed up at all it could need replacement. I have seen starters take out flywheels and flexplates when they go bad!

It sounds like you have a vacuum leak. That would account for the constant need of extra fuel...

yeah, i guess i'll have to crawl under it and take that starter off again. grr!

as for the vacuum leak... that might be true, but after i got it started again, i left it running in high idle for about 30 minutes, then drove it around the block. after that it idled just fine. but when i put it in drive or reverse, the rpms drop -- i dont like that, so it will need attention soon. thanks for the tip. i'll look for a vacuum leak.

W.

 

[Jimmy Neutron]

The rpm's are supposed to drop about 200 r's when putting a load on the engine. (aka shifting from netrual/park into gear)

After that more detailed description, I would look into your choke first!!

 

[Jimmy Neutron]

ALSO~

Check your flexplate before going thru all the hassle of making sure you have the right starter. I am leaning toward the possiblity that it is the flexplate that needs the attention...

 

[Yardape]

If your starter was installed properly you should be ble to pry all day long with no result except maybe a dented oilpan. I would climb under and have a look to be certain the starter is fully seated into place. Make sure the starter bolts are tight. Also wouldnt hurt to pull the inspection cover to inspect the flexplate, make sure the teath are intact all the way around

 

[wolf83]

JN,

thanks for the tip. you can probably tell i know just enough to get myself in trouble. /emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

i will dig into my haynes manual and figure out how to get to my flexplate (whatever that is -- i'll know soon enough!)

i forgot to mention that i just bought this truck, and i suspect it sat for at least a week -- maybe longer - since the battery was completely dead. i just thought that it sitting for a while is what caused the rough start and rough idle. i suspect that going forward it will start and run more smoothly -- as soon as i can figure out how to get it to start.

thanks!

W.

 

[wolf83]

yardape, i am pretty sure i put the starter back in properly, but i did not pull the inspection cover to look. i thought that praying against the starter was a crazy way to get it started too -- maybe it was coincidence. tomorrow when i work on it again, i'll take the inspection cover off and look, then go for the flexplate.

frankly, i am just thrilled the darn thing runs! for $250 you cant beat that!

W.

 

[Jimmy Neutron]

If your starter was installed properly you should be ble to pry all day long with no result except maybe a dented oilpan. I would climb under and have a look to be certain the starter is fully seated into place. Make sure the starter bolts are tight. Also wouldnt hurt to pull the inspection cover to inspect the flexplate, make sure the teath are intact all the way around

I did not think of that... I guess it is getting late!

I am willing to bet an entire nickel that the pry/start was a coincedence... that the starter finally caught a good spot on the flexplate.

BTW: (correct me if my brain is malfunctioning)

The flex plate attaches the torque converter to the engine. The converter splines into and drives the fluid pump to build up pressure in the unit and acts as a slippage device so the car can idle in gear. Fluid pressure developed by the pump is routed by the valve body to shift gears by applying clutch packs inside the transmission. As you accelerate, fluid movement through veins in the torque converter increases and the transmission begins to transfer power to the driveshaft. As vehicle speed increases the governor valve sends shift signals through the valve body to engage different clutch packs or bands to change the gear ranges. (unless the transmission is controlled by the computer which is done by activating different solenoid valves-this is most modern transmissions.) Also most transmissions are equipped with a lock up clutch in the torque converter which completely locks the converter to increase mileage and lower emissions. This type may not apply to your truck...

 

[wolf83]

after all my research, i have come to the conclusion that a flexplate is the exact same thing as a flywheel. please correct me if i am wrong. although i must say that if i am wrong, then i would be curious to know why the word "flexplate" does nto appear anywhere in my haynes manual.

and for that matter, my haynes manual doesn't even have a pic or a diagram of a flywheel. Grr! my haynes manual SUCKS!

please, PLEASE point me to a QUALITY, USEFUL repair manual! the only one i found is for f150's and broncos years 80-96 -- that's too much to cram in a book and still be useful.

 

[BLADE262US]

The flexplate/flywheel is generally refered to in an automatic as a flexplate its like the connecting link from the motor to the tranny and in a manual tranny its refered to as a flywheel as it actually has the friction surface for the clutch . A flywheel is a thick heavy piece and a flexplate is very thin like 1/8 inch with a ring gear stuck to it . You can look through the inspection cover to check the teeth if your missing some it shold make a terrible grinding noise when trying to roll over and if its missing enough of them in one spot and happens to stop there its not going to roll over again till you rotate the crank to get to gear teeth again . If you have a stick tanny make sure they didnt give you an auto starter the nose cone is shorter and may be just reaching the gear teeth but should still make a terrible grinding noise when it slips . /emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

 

[Jimmy Neutron]

A flexplate and flywheel are similar, but not the same.

Flywheels are for standard transmissions.

The clutch engages with the flywheel attached directly to the crank. That is why it is made of material that can handle this type of environment.

Flexplates are for automatic transmissions.

They function as stated in the previous post. They are stamped out of thin sheet metal with a ring gear either bolted, pressed, or spot welded onto them. Their soul purpose is to aid in starting the vehicle by giving the starter something to engage into.

(Blade wrote that answer while I was typing this up!)

Getting to this part is quite simple. I will attempt to do a general walk thru:

1. Put the vehicle on jackstands.

---You need to be able to work under the vehicle.

2. Block the wheels.

---We do not want the vehilcle to roll around on you!

3. Unbolt the driveshaft from the axle.

---For room to slide the transmission back.

---It might want to slip out of the transmission; this is ok. Just 200mph tape it off so as to not to leak all over.

4. Support the transmission with a jack and a block of wood to help distribute the weight better.

---I usually make blocks that fit the transmission and are boltable to the jack.

---I ratchet strap the tranny to the jack as well.

5. Unbolt the transmission.

---Exhaust might have to be removed as well it it is in the way.

6. Unhook any wires/linkage from the transmission.

---Might not have to be done, if not done MUST be watched very carefully.

7. Slide the transmission back about 4-7 inches.

---Enough to see what you are doing.

8. The flexplate should be the first item you see when looking into the bellhousing of the transmission.

---There usually is about 4-6 bolts attaching it to the torque converter.

---It is about as big around as a large pizza.

Sometimes those manuals serve as great paperweights! For me, nothing is better than jumping into the project and learning as I perform the task at hand. Remember to think everything thru, be careful (saftey is #1), and we are here to help you thru it as much as we can!!

 

[wolf83]

thanks blade and JN. let me get this straight. i should follow your instructions only AFTER i have removed the inspection plate and looked at the ring gear to see if it has any missing teeth... right? i'll take some pics and post them.

thanks,

W.

 

[wolf83]

round two...

i put the truck back on the ramp and took some pics -- see below... then i proceeded to take the inspection cover off. or rather i should say i took "a" cover off that i assume was the inspection cover. it is the dark brown dirty plate in the lower right part of the pic entitled 351w_starter_view_02. it has a bolt holding it on the right and the bolt on the left has its head twisted off (like that when i got it). i forgot to get a pic of the flexplate while the cover was off -- but i can tell you that i stuck my fingers in there to touch the teeth and noticed that the space between the teeth and the bell housing was so close that i could not get my fingers between them.

then, i took the starter off again and started to take the other cover off (the one that is not as dirty and a little shinier), but i could not figure out how to get it off easily. while i was feeling around the transmission, inside the starter hole and behind it and inside the hole behind the dirty cover, i found a large piece of metal in the cavity where the starter goes. see pic with my hand holding it. it looks like the tip of a starter casing -- i assume it is from the old one, since the starter i have in now is complete.

i felt the flexplate teeth from every angle i could -- inside the starter cavity, inside the inspection cavity, etc... and the teeth feel "burred" on the far side of flexplate (the side of the plate closest to the rear of the vehicle), but smooth on the near side. i suspect the broken piece was keeping the starter from engaging the flexplate, but not in the way of the starter spinning. the starter pinion has to slide into place to make contact with the flexplate, right? if so, then i think the starter is not sliding into place, but it is spinning.

thinking that broken piece was the problem, i put everything back together and tried to start it. after a second of it sounding like it wasn't connecting, it started to connect and fired right up.

i let it run for a while, then turned it off and immediately tried to start it again. this time it made the same high pitched spinning sound that makes me think it is not connecting with the flexplate. as i type this i am beginning to wonder if there might be another piece stuck in the cavity too. i suppose i'll have to pull the starter out again and check.

any thoughts?

W.

 

[BLADE262US]

Hmmm that part is nto a good thing that is the end cap from the starter there is a bushing in the end of that , thet the bendix shaft rides in . Need to take a pic of the end of your starter so I can see that . If that piece came off your starter then you will need a new one if its parts from the previous starter then thats not good either youll have to make sure they are all out of there because if a piece that size got caught up in the flex plate at any kind of RPM you may end up with a new access hole that you dont want you noticed how little space there is between the ring gear and the bellhousing . See if you can get that pic of the end of your starter and we will go from there they could have given you one for a manual its longer but should have made a griding/sqeeling noise when turning over the noise your hearing now is the starter motor running but the bendix not enguaging the flywheel /emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

 

[Jimmy Neutron]

thanks blade and JN. let me get this straight. i should follow your instructions only AFTER i have removed the inspection plate and looked at the ring gear to see if it has any missing teeth... right? i'll take some pics and post them.
thanks,

W.

This is correct.

(sorry about the slow responce, very busy day)

MORE PICTURES!!! /emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" /> Pics of the flexplate would be spectacular!!

That dirty thing with the twisted off bolt is your inspection plate.

I suppose it is time to make real sure you have the right starter...

 

[wolf83]

MORE PICTURES!!! Pics of the flexplate would be spectacular!!

ok... more pics... i hope my wife doesn't freak out about me crawling around under a greasy truck with her good camera.

3 pics of the flexplate and 3 pics of the good starter, and a pic of what looks to me like a broken piece still inside the bell housing.

it looks to me like the tips of the starter's teeth are barely making contact with the tip of the flexplate teeth. it looks like the center tooth on the flexplate is getting worn down.

i am starting to wonder if i have the wrong size bolts holding the starter together. i know the bolts are 17mm metric (the head says 10.9 metric hardness -- about the only thing i learned from haynes is how to tell a metric bolt).

i wonder if ford used any metric bolts in 1986. can anyone tell me if 1986 f150s are metric or sae?

thanks, W.

let's hope i can upload these pics...

 

[BLADE262US]

Well good news is that starter isnt the one that broke . The spare parts in the housing could have been interfering with the bendix enguagement . The teeth dont look all that bad I have seen much worse . Need a dimension from the starter face to the end of that cone and then someone on here could be helpful if they have a spare starter from an automatic laying around they could post that dimension and you could compare it to yours . Could very well be the problem is you have a manual starter . The cone is longer /emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />