Still Wont Start

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JBronco

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Hey guys I got a story to tell that I cannot finish and hopefully you guys can help me finish. First off I have a 88 Bronco 351w. Back in May of this year I went to get in the truck to go to work and it simply would not start, It would turn over very stong and for a long time but it would not start. Now I had no starting problems prior to that day however, the months leading to that day the truck had been runny a little off with occasonal missing and sputtering but it was nothing to serious and as I said it had been running that way for several months with the problem not really getting worse. Initially I had the truck towed to a shop to get it troubleshot, the shop managed to get it to start by tweaking the distributor, but it would still take alot of turning for it to catch and start, I then took the truck home with the advise to change fuel filter, fuel tank (mine had a small leak and we thought it may have rust in the bottom) and finally if needed the injectors, and intank fuel pump. Also while at the shop they did do a fuel pressure test and the pressure was good, they also checked the timming and it was good. So at this point i could get my truck to start by tweeking the distributor and letting it turn over for up to a minute. I took the truck home to start changing things out starting with the tank, pump and filter. I changed all of those peices out put new gas in the truck and it made no difference. So then the guys at the shop said to go ahead and do the injectors. While doing the injectors a buddy was helping me and he had told me that he had seen similar issuues that were caused by the catilitic converter being old and clogged, so while changing the injectors I also put a new cat on. After changing cat and injectors still no change in the truck. Now at this point i was going on the assumption that the hard to start and shacky idle and missing of the truck were both the same problem. After all that and nothing helping I decided that I would get a new distributor, cap, rotor, plugs and wires. So I went ahead and changed all of that and again it made no difference. I have a friend at my work that builds engines and he told me to bring the truck into work and the would check it out (I have maint. bays and endless tools at my job to work on my truck if needed) so I brought it in for him to check out. He also was assuming that the starting issue and the poor running were related so he did a compression test on my cylinders because he thought it sounded like I had a dead cylinder. We discovered that i only had 75PSI in my #7 cylinder, all the others were in tolerance. He then further trouble shot where the pressure leak was comming from and found it was comming out through the exhaust valve. So then began the process of tearing the whole engine down. Once we had everything apart we found that the exhasut valve on the #7 was slighlty warped, also we realized that one of my lifters on the #7 was sinking way into the block, turns out that my camshaft and that particular lifter had worn eachougher down so bad that that valve was barely opening, either of us had ever seen a lifer so worn out it was half an inch shorter than the other. So we figured the camshaft would be worn out also, and sure enough we pulled it out and just that one lobe on the shaft was almost completly gone. At this point we thought we had figured out the problem so i got a new camshaft and lifters. Just yesterday I got it all put back together, I got in the truck to start it, while my buddy was watching the engine and it tured over about 3 times and fired up and sounded great for about 2 seconds, I had to shit it off after that casue a coolant line wasnt tightened down enough and coolant was leaking, we tightened the clamp down thinking all was well but then it would not start back up. Even when we moved the distributor it would just turn over and over but not start. It was midnight and we were frusterated and went home. Thinking now I am starting to think that it was two seperate issues with my truck one being the no start and a seperate issue with the poor running. I now think I may have fixed the poor running with the camshaft and lifters but the no starting problem persists. I know this is probobally a record on the longest post but I wanted to explain everything as best I can so maybe I could get some new ideas because I am fresh out. Today i am going to test the ignition coil but if that doesnt turn out to be bad I am totally out of Ideas. Any help you guys can give me is appriciated. Thanks

 

budster 95

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First determine whether your problem is ignition or fuel. This can easily be done by pulling out a spark plug, and placing the base in contact with a good ground. you should have a strong blue spark. also, all of your plugs should look like coffee in color. too dark, would be too rich, too white, would be too lean, oil, water, etc. the color of your plugs tells you a lot about how the engine is performing. Once you have determined that you have good spark, you can remove the the air cleaner hoses at the intake manifold, a use a small amount of starting fluid. if it starts easy, you know your problem is fuel related. Be careful with the starting fluid, be sure to have a fire extinguisher handy!

 

BUCKIN'94WFO

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Did you ever check the crank trigger? I'm not real sure if the 88's were even built with crank OR cam position sensors but if so, check 'em. I would also have a remote starter hooked up at the solenoid and while it was turning over with the key in the "key on engine running" position- check to make sure you have 12 volts going to the distributor AND your coil. Or like Budster said - check for spark at your firing pins and go backwards from there to the power source!
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You've already said that you have a NEW distributor,wires,cap,rotor and so on. So really the only place left to check is from the ignition switch on through to the distributor. A broken or loose wire to your Hall effect plug? Loss of power in a wire >< ignition switch and starter solenoid? I don't know...but I'd look in that area there somewhere.
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Hope ya get it nailed down...especially after throwin' all that money at it so far!! At least you got a new cam and lifters in it now- so when it does bust off it ought to run like a striped ass ape!
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Good luck and let us know where the Gremlin is!

 

miesk5

96 Bronco 5.0
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yo,

Since you have the (New? or rebuilt?) distr in there; some of the following usually does not apply, esp the TFI Module troubleshooting along w/ the Hall Effect (also called da Profile Ignition Pick-up (PIP) Signal, or Stator, or RPM) since we all PRESUME these Hall Effects & Ign Modules are GOOD.. yeah, right. We've seen all kinds of crap coming in from that huge country that would like to blow us all up. And I would Never use any ignition module or hall effect other than Genuine Ford Motorcraft units.

btw, suggest that shop close it's doors or change it's name to.."Maybe It's This R-Us" because all they needed to do was open up the the Ford Electrical & Vacuum Troubleshooting Manual (EVTM) & Workshop Manual to do the troubleshooting; and they Should have done a self test for Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTC);

DIY using my friend, BroncoJoe19's process; do the KOEO = Key On Engine Off portion first & after you get it running have engine @ Normal Operating Temperature before doing the KEY ON ENGINE RUNNING (KOER) portion

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Following is by Chilton;

Diagnosis & Testing-TFI-IV System

After performing any test which requires piercing a wire with a straight pin, remove the straight pin and seal the holes in the wire with silicone sealer.

The ignition coil must be diagnosed separately from the rest of the ignition system.

1.Primary resistance is measured between the two primary (low voltage) coil terminals, with the coil connector disconnected and the ignition switch off. Primary resistance should be 0.3-1.0 ohms.

IGNORE THIS > 2.On Dura Spark ignitions, the secondary resistance is measured between the BATT and high voltage (secondary) terminals of the ignition coil with the ignition OFF, and the wiring from the coil disconnected. Secondary resistance must be 8,000-11,500 ohms.

3.If resistance tests are okay, but the coil is still suspected, test the coil on a coil tester by following the test equipment manufacturer's instructions for a standard coil. If the reading differs from the original test, check for a defective wiring harness.

----

Supply Voltage

1.Attach the negative lead of a voltmeter to the distributor base.

2.Turn the ignition switch ON and connect the positive voltmeter lead to the positive (+) ignition coil terminal. Note the voltage reading then turn the ignition OFF. If the voltage reading is at least 90 percent of the battery voltage, yet the engine will still not run; first, check the ignition coil connector and terminals for corrosion, dirt, and/or damage; second, replace the ignition switch if the connectors and terminal are okay.

3.Connect any remaining wiring

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Primary Circuit Switching Test

1.Insert a small straight pin in the wire which runs from the coil negative (-) terminal to the TFI module, about 1 in. (25mm) from the module.

WARNING

The pin must not touch ground!

2.Connect a 12 VDC test lamp between the straight pin and an engine ground.

3.Crank the engine, noting the operation of the test lamp. If the test lamp flashes, proceed to the next test. If the test lamp lights but does not flash, proceed to the Wiring Harness test. If the test lamp does not light at all, proceed to the Primary Circuit Continuity test.

Primary Voltage

1.Attach the negative lead of a voltmeter to the distributor base.

2.Turn the ignition switch ON and connect the positive voltmeter lead to the negative (-) ignition coil terminal. Note the voltage reading and turn the ignition OFF. If the voltmeter reading is less than 90 percent of the available battery voltage, inspect the wiring between the ignition module and the negative (-) coil terminal, then proceed to the Ignition Coil Supply Voltage test.

-----------

Secondary Voltage

1.Disconnect the secondary (high voltage) coil wire from the distributor cap and install a spark tester between the coil wire and ground.

2.Crank the engine. A good, strong spark should be noted at the spark tester. If spark is noted, but the engine will not start, check the spark plugs, spark plug wiring, and fuel system. If there is no spark at the tester: Check the ignition coil secondary wire resistance; it should be no more than 5,000 ohms per foot. Inspect the ignition coil for damage and/or carbon tracking. With the distributor cap removed, verify that the distributor shaft turns with the engine; if it does not, repair the engine as required. If the fault was not found proceed to the Ignition Coil Primary Voltage test.

---------------

Next is the Hall Effect (also called da Profile Ignition Pick-up (PIP) Signal, or Stator, or RPM)

Here is a pic of it inside the distr. is by our pal here, YARDAPE

Pickupcoil.jpg

Its the blue gizmo there.

Stator Assembly And Module

1.Remove the distributor from the engine.

2.Remove the TFI module from the distributor.

3.Inspect the distributor terminals, ground ****** and stator wiring for damage. Repair as necessary.

4.Measure the resistance of the stator assembly, using an ohmmeter. If the ohmmeter reading is 800-975 ohms, the stator is okay, but the TFI module must be replaced. If the ohmmeter reading is less than 800 ohms or more than 975 ohms; the TFI module is okay, but the stator module must be replaced.

5.Repair as necessary and install the TFI module and the distributor

if you see any Chinese markings on it.. ya know da drill...

Wiring Harness

1.Disconnect the wiring harness connector from the TFI module; the connector tabs must be PUSHED to disengage the connector. Inspect the connector for damage, dirt, and corrosion.

2.Attach the negative lead of a voltmeter to the base of the distributor. Attach the other voltmeter lead to a small straight pin. With the ignition switch in the RUN position, insert the straight pin into the No. 1 terminal of the TFI module connector. Note the voltage reading. With the ignition switch in the RUN position, move the straight pin to the No. 2 connector terminal. Again, note the voltage reading. Move the straight pin to the No. 3 connector terminal, then turn the ignition switch to the START position. Note the voltage reading then turn the ignition OFF.

3.The voltage readings should all be at least 90 percent of the available battery voltage. If the readings are okay, proceed to the Stator Assembly and Module test. If any reading is less than 90 percent of the battery voltage, inspect the wiring, connectors, and/or ignition switch for defects. if the voltage is low only at the No. 1 terminal, proceed to the ignition coil primary voltage test.

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\\88282g19.gif

TFI schematic

........

88282g27.gif

Exploded view of the TFI components

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The Thick Film Integrated (TFI-IV) ignition system uses a camshaft driven distributor with no centrifugal or vacuum advance. The distributor has a diecast base, incorporating a Hall effect stator assembly. The TFI-IV system module is mounted on the distributor base, it has 6 pins and uses an E-Core ignition coil, named after the shape of the laminations making up the core.

The TFI-IV module supplies voltage to the Profile Ignition Pick-up (PIP) sensor, which sends the crankshaft position information to the TFI-IV module. The TFI-IV module then sends this information to the EEC-IV module, which determines the spark timing and sends an electronic signal to the TFI-IV ignition module to turn off the coil and produce a spark to fire the spark plug.

The operation of the universal distributor is accomplished through the Hall effect stator assembly, causing the ignition coil to be switched off and on by the EEC-IV computer and TFI-IV modules. The vane switch is an encapsulated package consisting of a Hall sensor on one side and a permanent magnet on the other side.

A rotary vane cup, made of ferrous metal, is used to trigger the Hall effect switch. When the window of the vane cup is between the magnet and the Hall effect device, a magnetic flux field is completed from the magnet through the Hall effect device back to the magnet. As the vane passes through the opening, the flux lines are shunted through the vane and back to the magnet. A voltage is produced while the vane passes through the opening. When the vane clears the opening, the window causes the signal to go to 0 volts. The signal is then used by the EEC-IV system for crankshaft position sensing and the computation of the desired spark advance based on the engine demand and calibration. The voltage distribution is accomplished through a conventional rotor, cap and ignition wires.

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Stator Assembly > Removal & Installation > Fuel Injected Engines > V8 Engines

1.Remove the distributor assembly from the engine; refer to the procedure in this section.

2.Remove the ignition rotor from the distributor shaft.

3.Mark the armature and distributor drive gear with a felt tip pen or equivalent, to note their orientation. While holding the distributor gear, remove the 2 armature retaining screws and remove the armature.

Do not hold the armature to loosen the screws.

4.Use a suitable punch to remove the roll pin from the distributor drive gear; discard the roll pin.

5.Position the distributor upside down in a suitable press. Using a press plate and suitable driver, press off the distributor drive gear.

6.Use a file and/or emery paper to remove any burrs or deposits from the distributor shaft, that would keep the shaft from sliding freely from the distributor housing. Remove the shaft assembly.

7.Remove the 2 stator assembly retaining screws.

8.Remove the octane rod and *****.

9.Remove the stator assembly.

10.Inspect the base bushing for wear or signs of excess heat concentration. If damage is evident, the entire distributor assembly must be replaced.

11.Inspect the base O-ring for cuts or damage and replace, as necessary.

12.Inspect the base for cracks and wear. Replace the entire distributor assembly if the base is damaged.

To install:

13.Position the stator assembly over the bushing and press down to seat.

14.Position the stator connector. The tab should fit in the notch on the base and the fastening eyelets should be aligned with the ***** holes. Be sure the wires are positioned out of the way of moving parts.

15.Install the 2 stator retaining screws and tighten to 15-35 inch lbs. (1.7-4.0 Nm). Install the octane rod.

16.Apply a thin coat of clean engine oil to the distributor shaft below the armature. Insert the shaft into the distributor base.

17.Place a 1/2 in. deep well socket over the distributor shaft, invert the assembly and place on the press plate.

18.Position the distributor drive gear on the end of the distributor shaft, aligning the marks on the armature and gear. Make sure the holes in the shaft and drive gear are aligned, so the roll pin can be installed.

19.Place a 5/8 in. deep well socket over the shaft and gear and press the gear until the holes are aligned.

If the shaft and gear holes do not align, the gear must be removed and repressed. Do not attempt to use a drift punch to align the holes.

20.Drive a new roll pin through the gear and shaft.

21.Install the armature and tighten the screws to 25-35 inch lbs. (2.8-4.0 Nm).

22.Check that the distributor shaft moves freely over full rotation. If the armature contacts the stator, the entire distributor must be replaced.

23.Make sure the back of the TFI-IV module and and the distributor mounting face are clean. Apply silicone dielectric compound to the back of the module, spreading thinly and evenly.

24.Turn the distributor base upside down, so the stator connector is in full view.

25.Install the ignition rotor onto the distributor shaft. Install the distributor as described in this section

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Troubleshooting, Overview & Operation; "...Ford calls this electronic ignition the Thick Film Integrated-IV (TFI-IV) ignition system. The TFI module is also known as the Ignition Control Module (ICM) which reports engine position and rpm to the PCM. The PCM then determines the proper spark timing and advance, and returns a reference signal to tell the TFI module to switch the coil, thereby creating a spark. The PCM used on these vehicles is referred to by Ford as the Electronic Engine Control-IV (EEC-IV) module..." most is applicable to Broncos, read more Source: by therangerstation.com

Notice the difference in Ign Modules here as compared to the Chilton diagramsmiesk5 NOTE; use BLACK CCD Ignition Modules in 1994-1996 Broncos

See if you can find the part # on it; it's prob Not a Motorcraft unit I bet. I used to pull the module and place it on the intake manifold of a running engine and then test it; same for da hall effect.

Next up is the Troubleshooting Worksheet; miesk5 Note; this is the Grey Module Source: by therangerstation.com

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Consider Ford Fuel Injection and Electronic Engine Control: How to Understand, Service and Modify, 1988-1993; & Ford Fuel Injection and Electronic Engine Control: How to Understand, Service, and Modify All Ford-Lincoln-Mercury Cars and Light Trucks, 1980 to 1987 by Charles Probst

avail @ BARNES & NOBLE, AMAZON, E BAY, ETC.

 
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