No Start

[chuckles1856]

Greetings Broncildo Owners, fellow wrenchers and grease monkey gurus!

Here's what I'm dealing with (among other things):

Truck: 1991 Bronco 5.8l

Issue: Won't start

Notes:

It cranks so I've got power

I smell gas after I try and start

I can hear the pump when I Key On

I don't think I'm getting spark

I've got power to the coil

The coils specs seemed slighty off and it was really hot so I went and got a new one.

Here's where I need some help.

1) I plugged up the new coil without screwing it down but still nothing are the bolts that hold it down grounding it?

2) When I check the spark it's really hard to get the ***** driver in the plug wire and get it close to the plug in the block. I should still see a spark putting the ***** driver close to the block, right?

3) If I perform the same procedure using the coil wire to distrib cap I should see a spark there, right?

Bottom line is I haven't seen any spark and my poor Bronco sets idle in the driveway leaking oil like an old Harley.

Thoughts?

Thanks in advance.

Ed

 

[miesk5]

yo ED,

Go thru No Start, but Cranks and or Misfire, etc.; Thick

http://easyautodiagnostics.com/ford_ignition_module/distributor_mounted_module_1.php

see Ignition Coil Test -No Spark No Start Tests

(Ford 4.9L, 5.0L, 5.8L)

http://troubleshootmyvehicle.com/ford/4.9L-5.0L-5.8L/how-to-test-the-ignition-coil-1

Spark Tester, DIY; W/ an old spark plug and cut off the L-shaped tip,& clean up the center electrode and surrounding metal with a bit of sandpaper. Drill a small hole in the thickest part of the metal. Use a metal ***** to attach a length of wire, a couple of feet, to the body of the spark plug. To the other end of the wire, solder or otherwise attach a big alligator clip. Since the tip is cut off, the spark will have to be stronger to jump the wider gap. It is harder for a spark to form in a compressed cylinder so it more accurately represents the spark performance under running conditions. With the engine off, remove the spark plug wire you wish to test from the spark plug. Attach the spark tester to the plug wire and connect the alligator clip to a good ground. Remember that the coil output can give you a very nasty shock, so make sure to wear thick gloves or use a rag to hold the tester, and not to touch the body of the car when the system is energized. Hold the tester away from the car body and use your remote starter switch or have an assistant start the car (or simply turn it over). You should get a healthy bluish white spark from the center post to the side of the spark tester. COIL; If your coil is already off the Bronco, you can bench test your coil. To set up the test, remove one spark plug wire from its plug, then remove the spark plug using a spark plug socket. Next put the spark plug back into the spark plug wire. Be careful not to let anything drop into the empty spark plug hole. Holding the plug wire with insulated pliers, find a spot on the engine that is a good and easily accessible grounding point. Pretty much any exposed metal, including the engine itself, will do. Holding the spark plug wire with your pliers, touch the threaded portion of the spark plug to the grounding point. Have somebody crank the engine with the key, and look for a bright blue spark to jump across the spark plug gap. If you see a nice, bright spark (clearly visible in daylight) your coil is doing its job.

Source: by miesk5

 

[Rons beast]

Hey Chuckles,

Ditto everything M5 posted. A quick and easy test is connect a test light between the + and - terminals of the coil. (btw the coil body does not have to be grounded) Have someone crank the engine. The test light should flash if it is getting a "fire" signal from the distrib. No flash you need to diagnose the primary side ignition electronics. ( module, stator, wiring,connectors, etc.)

If you do have a flash, the coil will (or should, if the coil is functioning), produce a spark. If that spark is weak, or does not travel to the spark plugs, your wires, cap or rotor are suspect. A rare cause would be the plugs being wrong, or so badly worn they will not fire properly.

You can measure the resistence of the coil and plug wires, but it varies greatly depending on the type and manufacturer of the wire. Poor grade wires can have a resistence of 4000ohms/ ft or greater. High Quality wires as little as 40ohms/ft.

Good Luck

 

[chuckles1856]

Thanks for the insight! I found the "easy diag" instructions yesterday so I'm going to run through those when I get some spare cycles. I'll let you all know how it goes.

And just to throw a little more info out here. The truck was running idle warming up( a few weeks ago). When I put it into gear it died and I haven't been able to get it started since.

It would pull this stunt when it would get below 30 degrees. I'm guessing some component was going bad and the coldness helped it act up. Until now that component has gone to the Bronco Graveyard in the sky. ;-)

 

[chuckles1856]

Performed tests 1 & 2. So I've verified that there's power and ground to the Ignition Control Module.

Need to get a wire piercing tool to do the other tests.

Ed

 

[miesk5]

yo Chuckless

In lieu of piercing wire; try Back-probing terminals. It is always better to back-probe a terminal than it is to pierce a wire's insulation to obtain a measurement. Insert a long straight pin, T-pin, or meter probe into the back of the connector or device.

GL!

 

[chuckles1856]

I was wondering about piercing the insulation of a wire. Seemed like a good way to introduce another issue. I'll give the back probe a shot and see what I get.

Thanks!

 

[chuckles1856]

Greetings All,

Used the back probe method to figure out my ICM was not working properly.

I pushed a pin in the back of the connector and used another pin (from a switch) to put in the front side of the connector. Then I used the multi-meter to check continuity just to make sure I had completed the circuit with the back probe.

After that I simply took out the pin on the front of the connector and fit it back into the ICM.

Then just ran through Step 3 and 4 from the easy diag link from above.

Also, tried to use an LED I had laying around and I just fried it. I had to break down and buy the $3 one from Radio Shack.

And when I made the "LED light tool" I used enough wire to reach around to the cab of the truck so I could crank the engine and watch the light.

 

[miesk5]

yo C,

OK!

So the ICM is bad?

Replace it yet?

Use Ford ICM, GREY MODULE and get PN from Ford or via

http://www.fordparts.com/

SELECT:

YEAR

MAKE

MODEL

IGNITION

SECONDARY

5.8L

(DY-425) Ignition Control Module

5.8L; Distributor mounted TFI module

or is it remote mounted near (below) driver side hood hinge

(DY-1075) Ignition Control Module 5.8L 351 CID 8 Cylinders; Color: Gray, w/ Remote Mounted Module

USE DY-425 number (pretty sure it is Distributor Mountedin your 91) to search for Best Price or Location near you.

Distributor Mount Gray TFI-IV "Push Start" ICM

Ford Bronco - Wiring Schematic

Motorcraft - DY1074 (supercedes DY-425)

Ford - 5U2J-12A297-AA, 5U2Z-12A297-A

Wells - F121

Niehoff - FF409

BWD - CBE24

Standard - LX218

NapaEchlin - TP31

Delphi - DS10051

Transpo - FM425

MSD - 83648 (Made by Transpo above)

PART NUMBERS & SOURCES by seattle bronco

 

[chuckles1856]

Greetings miesk5,

No, haven't replaced it yet. Sure wish it wasn't on the distributor. Something simple is now a PITA. ;-)

So huge price diff between Napa ($45) and Ford Dealer (below). I'm sure quality is the driving decision here as I could buy 3 Napa for the price of 1 Ford. However, if I have to replace a Napa one every few years the price point suddenly goes away, especially if I'm in BFE and the Bronc won't start.

How is my analysis?

Also, the Ford dealer lists 2 parts which seem identical only one costs more than the other? Could one be new old stock and the other new?

12A297

(DY-425)

Ignition Control Module

5.8L; Distributor mounted TFI module

$198.65

$158.92

-----------------------------------------

DY-425

Ignition Control Module

5.8L; Distributor mounted TFI module

$160.24

$128.19

 

[miesk5]

yo C, I try to use Ford MC parts;

I get my Ford parts via AMAZON; they are VG at delvy and esp pricing; I bought a $150.00 DPFE Sensor (not incl. sales tax) for $50.00 with free shipping and no state sales tax; same for the IAC sensor.

I have bought parts from our Sponsor, Jeff's but they do not List a MC ICM

I get many Ford parts via AMAZON (DY425 not available); or RockAuto; they are VG at delvy and esp pricing; I bought a $150.00 DPFE Sensor ( for $50.00 with free shipping and no state sales tax; same for the IAC sensor.

or

MOTORCRAFT Part # DY425 More Info {#E43Z12A297A}

Category: Ignition Control Module (ICM) [Wholesaler Closeout -- 30 Day Warranty] (Only 2 Remaining) $79.79

\http://www.rockauto.com/dbphp/x,catalog,48,partnum,DY425,d,MOTORCRAFT_DY425.html

Distributor mounted TFI module

Motorcraft Module - DY425 Your Price: $84.52

http://www.ryderfleetproducts.com/motorcraft-dy425/module-p-w83-dy425

I have heard from friends that Ryder parts are Legit and VG

Shipping Charge $7.95

$250 and greater = Free Shipping

Ignition Control Module (ICM) Removal Tips @ distributor; "...To remove the TFI = thick film integrated module you need to loosen the saftey "lock bolt" at base of the distributor so you can TURN the distributor for better access and removal but make a referecne mark so you can turn the distributor back exactly where it was otherwise you'll have to re-set the timimg so it will start and run properly. There's a special tool "ignition module socket, mfg by Powerbuilt # 648420 so you can remove the screws on the module to replace it BUT to test it you just need to turn the ignition key to the "RUN" position, engine off. don't remember what I paid for the "socket" maybe $15.00 range...?

Source: by JKossarides ("The Bronco", Jean)

To Relocate to fender as in later years;

& Modify Mount: by Seattle FSB (SeattleFSB) at http://www.supermotors.net/registry/20487/75165

 

[Rons beast]

Hey Chuckles,

M5 has all the part numbers,and his sources for purchase are well experianced, but I found the bottom line to be the color of the ICM. The black ones have a tach return the grey do not. At least this is what my friendly local Ford parts man told me. He said you have to replace a black with black and grey with grey. I found this out after making the mistake of not replacing the correct color even though the part number was correct for The Beast. Fortunate that the parts guy was upstanding and took the wrong one back.

Good Luck

 

[chuckles1856]

I was just about to go find one on line and buy it....Good thing I checked and read Rons post. My kids would have been repeating all the four letter words when the Broncdildo didn't fire up. ;-)

 

[Rons beast]

Hey Chuckles,

I can't say the Bronc wouldn't fire, but there would be a CEL and the code would read as a problem with the engine speed circuit.

Hope you get this one straightened out.

Good Luck

 

[chuckles1856]

OK I finally found some time to get the wrenches out.  Got a new ICM from NAPA.  Was going the Ford route but something happened and  I just kept putting it off, so I just decided to grab it the other day.

Any way, I got it on and tried to fire it up and nothing.

Got the spark checker out and still no spark from the coil to the distributor.

Truck has been dead for over 4 months.  Battery is dead and the rear view mirror fell off. 

I was out of ideas when I started now I'm really out of ideas.  I don't know what else to do?

 

[chuckles1856]

BTW -- little ignition module removal tool was $5 at Napa.  it's a 7/32 hex bolt....so in theory you could use a hex driver if it's long enough...I'll post a pic sometime and show what I mean.

 

[miesk5]

yo C,

Is Battery dead now?

If so re-charge it and try to start

back to basic code tests;

Try a Self Test for Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTC)s by my pal, BroncoJoe19
http://broncozone.com/topic/14269-code-reader/?&pid=74587&mode=threaded

The engine temperature must be greater than 50° F for the Key On Engine Off (KOEO) Self-Test;

and when you get it running, greater than 180° F for the Key On Engine Running (KOER) Self-Test -

Then turn off all accessories/lights, etc.

Make sure transmission is in Park (automatic) or in Neutral for a Manual & release clutch.

Do Key On Engine Off (KOEO) portion

-- 

Go through the easy diagnostics tests again;

remember, " if you do find out that the Ignition Coil failed, is that the Engine will be flooded with gasoline and this may require that you remove the gasoline fouled Spark Plugs to dry them out (or your vehicle may still not start).

IGNITION COIL TEST 1

http://troubleshootmyvehicle.com/ford/4.9L-5.0L-5.8L/how-to-test-the-ignition-coil-2

look for bad connector wiring, etc while checking.

 

[BroncoJoe19]

I agree with miesk5 pulling codes is a good place to restart. Since the truck has been sitting, there's no guarantee that things that you checked in the past are still good. For example, grounds or connections may have continued to deteriorate, and may now be bad, despite the fact that you replaced a defective part.

When you turn the key to ON, (not start) do you hear the fuel pump prime AND Does your CEL light up on the dash? I just want to make sure that the EEC relay, and Fuel pump relays are getting power, and are being triggered ON.

remember... grounds are the other half of an electrical circuit. three particularly important grounds are the ones on the upper radiator support (one on the left, and one on the right) and the ohe to the PCM, near the driver's side hood hinge.

Make sure your battery terminals are clean and tight.

I'm hoping NOT, but I THINK the hall effect sensor inside the distributor is the next likely candidate for failure considering the parts you already changed, ofcourse there is the posibility of getting a bad ICM out of the box, you may consider having it tested. Wow... it's been a long time, but would pulling the SPOUT take the ICM out of the picture?

So here's what I would do. Put the battery on charge, and while waiting for that, check and clean battery cables, and grounds, then read up on how to pull codes.

Next I'd pull codes.

 

[chuckles1856]

I used another vehicle to jump it yesterday for testing purposes.

Heard the fuel pump whine and the CEL lit up.

I'm going to get the battery charged up and then run through the self diag tests and pull some codes.  I will check the grouds too. 

I'll be back....hopefully soon.

Thanks for all the help with this!