Alternator Charging Issue

[ledzilla]

Well, I went to pull the alternator out for now before installing the new belt, and I ran into trouble. I dropped the original adjuster bolt earlier this year and it just plain disappeared. Couldn't find it anywhere which leads me to believe it's trapped somewhere under the hood where I'll never likely find it unless I do some sort of comprehensive restoration project. I used a bolt and flanged nut with a yellow zinc chromate coating to replace the old bolt and that worked well until today. I thought what I used was Grade 5 or 8, but the threads stripped right out and the bolt spins in the nut without coming loose. So, figured I'll just remove the bolt that holds the bracket the engine. Nope. The head rounded off. So at the current moment the alternator is stuck. I don't have enough time today to run to the store to get some bolt extractors before I run out of daylight, so with any luck I can get to it tomorrow if the cold snap we're expecting doesn't arrive too soon. If that all works, then I can get the alternator and bracket on my bench so I can cut off the nut and bolt.

I gotta say, I don't think I've ever encountered this before. When I get a wrench onto the nut, it's definitely on there as it will move in whatever direction I spin the bolt when I don't hold it in place. And I can feel the bolt spinning and heating up when I try to work it with my cordless ratchet. Once I get it all apart, I'll go order some new hardware and make sure it's at least Grade 8. Really don't want to mess around with this again.

 

[Tiha]

Dang, yeah that sucks.

Bolts today you never know.

You can take a hammer and a chisel. Try to smash the nut a little if you can get to it. Sometimes that will make the grab some threads.

Otherwise you are trying to cut the heat off I imagine? To get it out?

 

[L\Bronco]

Well, I went to pull the alternator out for now before installing the new belt, and I ran into trouble. I dropped the original adjuster bolt earlier this year and it just plain disappeared. Couldn't find it anywhere which leads me to believe it's trapped somewhere under the hood where I'll never likely find it unless I do some sort of comprehensive restoration project. I used a bolt and flanged nut with a yellow zinc chromate coating to replace the old bolt and that worked well until today. I thought what I used was Grade 5 or 8, but the threads stripped right out and the bolt spins in the nut without coming loose. So, figured I'll just remove the bolt that holds the bracket the engine. Nope. The head rounded off. So at the current moment the alternator is stuck. I don't have enough time today to run to the store to get some bolt extractors before I run out of daylight, so with any luck I can get to it tomorrow if the cold snap we're expecting doesn't arrive too soon. If that all works, then I can get the alternator and bracket on my bench so I can cut off the nut and bolt.

I gotta say, I don't think I've ever encountered this before. When I get a wrench onto the nut, it's definitely on there as it will move in whatever direction I spin the bolt when I don't hold it in place. And I can feel the bolt spinning and heating up when I try to work it with my cordless ratchet. Once I get it all apart, I'll go order some new hardware and make sure it's at least Grade 8. Really don't want to mess around with this again.

That sucks Led
I have had luck put a good prybar between the bracket and the alt and pry like mad while holding the nut and running the ratchet or impact (if you have space)
this might take 3 hands.
sometimes the little bit of pressure starts the threads coming off.
Good luck.
Cheers!

 

[Jimbo26]

Whatever it takes- and sometimes ya have to get C4 explosives involved.
That eliminates All the issues

 

[ledzilla]

OK, so I got ahold of a set of bokt extractors and attacked that bracket bolt. The bolt head snapped off right quick. So, the alternator is now removed, but I have a bolt stuck in the motor. Since I'm just terrible at bolt extraction, it's going to have to wait until I can get over the shop nearby to have them pull it. They did a good job remove an idle pulley bolt from my '03 Marauder's motor, they'll likely be able to get this one, too.

I also pulled out my angle grinder, gave it a diamond cutting wheel, and cut off the adjustment nut and bolt once the alternator was removed. I'm not sure how it happened, but the threads were completely gone on the nut and the bolt. No wonder it wouldn't come loose. Can't say I've ever had that happen except with really cheap low strength hardware.

Something I noticed when I had the alternator out was a lot of belt material on the front of the casing. I attached a photo. A little surprising given that it spins freely. Again, maybe the voltage regulator was stuck on maximum output and causing a lot of drag.

 

[L\Bronco]

Hey Led
That looks like belt all over the housing.
Id check your pulley width to make sure the belt is wide enough, and verify that the alt pulley width matches the other pulleys on the engine.
Cheers

 

[ledzilla]

Hey Led
That looks like belt all over the housing.
Id check your pulley width to make sure the belt is wide enough, and verify that the alt pulley width matches the other pulleys on the engine.
Cheers

Yeah, I've gone through that before. It's the best sized pulley I've encountered. Smaller and the belt sticks way out and doesn't stay in the groove all that well. Wider and the belt sits too low and gets shredded fairly quickly.

 

[L\Bronco]

Maybe time to change the pulley? Or alt?
Just sayin’
Cheers!

 

[ledzilla]

Maybe time to change the pulley? Or alt?
Just sayin’
Cheers!

Nah. Maybe I'll order a pulley from PA Performance, but it's going to be quite a while before I can even put an alternator back on, anyway. Not unless there's a alternate way to mount it using different bolt holes for the brackets. Really not sure when I'm going to be able to take it in to the shop to get that broken bolt removed.

I've been considering buying a new mounting kit from CVF Racing. They were really easy to work with when I needed to do some unusual alterations when I bought a similar kit for the 460 in my truck. Their kits weren't intended for use in trucks, but we managed to figure how to make it work.

 

[ledzilla]

Giving it some thought, if the CVF kit uses the same bolt hole as the old bracket, I'm going to make my own kit by getting a stainless steel turnbuckle and figuring out somewhere to mount it where a bolt doesn't have the head snap off. Figure that should work well enough until I can sufficiently make arrangements to get that damaged bolt removed.

I'm also thinking that I'm going to revisit the whole pulley issue. Going to take some pictures of the crank pulley and other pulleys, and if it seems like it'll work, I'm just going to replace all of the pulleys with some billet pulleys and a double groove pulley for the alternator. I think that could eliminate some of the weird belt issues. Especially considering while looking up some info I came across something that talked about how alternators with a heavy load using V belt pulleys need a double groove instead of a single groove to prevent slippage caused by the extra resistance placed on rotation by the alternator handling the heavy load.

I'm also considering replacing the voltage regulator with a self-exciting regulator. That should eliminate the issue being caused by that wire and eliminate the need for the extra wiring in place for the exciter circuit. It would also eliminate the need for using that switch panel to turn on the alternator because of the missing solenoid wire from the ignition switch. The nice thing is that the cost is the same for either regulator. The only caveat mentioned is that the revs may need to be goosed to initiate charging, which isn't really a problem. Probably only necessary if fast idle isn't engaged after starting, if at all.

The funny thing is that I only replaced the alternator in the first place because the voltage regulator on the previous 3G alternator was disintegrating, and there was no identifying information on it to be able to determine what kind of output it has. I can probably just clean it up and toss a new regulator on it to have a spare alternator on hand. And if I had any idea what I was doing, I could probably do a rebuild on it to do a 3G conversion on one of my other old Fords, most likely my '78 LTD wagon with a 351M or my '78 Marquis with a 351W.

 

[L\Bronco]

Hey Led
The output rating of your old alt should be stamped into the housing near where the long bolt goes through.
Just FYI
Cheers!

 

[ledzilla]

Hey Led
The output rating of your old alt should be stamped into the housing near where the long bolt goes through.
Just FYI
Cheers!

Thanks for the info. Next time I'm in the garage I'll take a look.

I was just out at the Bronco to take a couple pictures of the pulleys and where the broken bolt is located, and I think I may be up a creek until I can afford to pay for having that bolt extracted. I'm not even sure how I could get the factory bracket removed at this point. If I went the whole pulley replacement route I would definitely need to do all of the pulleys, minus the AC (doesn't seem to work at all right now, so I'll deal with that some other time). from some of the pulley kits I've seen, I would have to not only replace the power steering pump pulley, but the pump itself since they indicate they work with either the old style pump with a steel reservoir or a Saginaw pump, neither of which are what's in my Bronco. I guess it has to do with the pump's drive shaft because I can't think of any other reason. Also, I can't just use the stock crank pulley because the belt groove for the AC is wider than the belt groove for the alternator, so I'd just end up with problems given that the dual groove alternator pulleys have the same size belt for both grooves.

CVF Racing got back to me with the instructions for their alternator bracket kit. And that looks like I can't install it because they use the bolt hole with the snapped bolt in it to mount the adjustment turnbuckle. So that really sucks. I was hoping that wouldn't be the case, but I'm not really surprised.

At any rate, I attached the pictures I took in case anyone was interested in what was going on with all of that and maybe had some insights on how I could get this remedied with an alternate method.

 

[ledzilla]

You know, looking over these photos, I may have been overthinking the problem of getting that broken bolt removed. It just passes right through the water pump and threads into the block. I can just pull the water pump and have better access to the bolt. I figure while I'm at it, I can probably just replace the pump, since I have one sitting around for my Marquis.

I am concerned that I may run into the same thing that I did with my Marquis, though. One of the water pump bolts was seized in the timing cover and wouldn't come out without causing damage, so I had to buy a new timing cover. And once in there, I found a lot of slop in the timing chain so I bought a new double roller set. None of this stuff has been installed yet because my garage got overrun by junk and I can't get my hoist over to the car so I can drop the oil pan and continue the work. I can just pick a warm enough day and get to work on this.

I seriously do need to figure out how to remove that large alternator bracket, though. I'm not sure how in the world I can get that upper bolt removed.

 

[L\Bronco]

You know, looking over these photos, I may have been overthinking the problem of getting that broken bolt removed. It just passes right through the water pump and threads into the block. I can just pull the water pump and have better access to the bolt. I figure while I'm at it, I can probably just replace the pump, since I have one sitting around for my Marquis.

I think that is a great Idea!
About the T\Chain on the Merc, you shouldn't have to remove the pan to do a timing chain, the T\chain gasket set should have come with the ends of the cork pan gasket, you just replace that part of the gasket while the timing cover is off and put a little RTV on the parting surfaces.
Hope that helps.
Cheers

 

[ledzilla]

I think that is a great Idea!
About the T\Chain on the Merc, you shouldn't have to remove the pan to do a timing chain, the T\chain gasket set should have come with the ends of the cork pan gasket, you just replace that part of the gasket while the timing cover is off and put a little RTV on the parting surfaces.
Hope that helps.
Cheers

Oh, I'm replacing all of the gaskets and such on it. They're all factory original from its Nov 1978 build date. Besides, it'll be easier to install the new timing cover with the oil pan removed. The new pan gasket I have kind of installs better that way, anyway. It's one piece.