1986 B2 2.9L - Fuel pump relay wiring issue

Disclaimer: Links on this page pointing to Amazon, eBay and other sites may include affiliate code. If you click them and make a purchase, we may earn a small commission.

OP
OP
J

Jbrownjr

Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2021
Messages
46
Reaction score
13
Location
Kuna, Idaho
We replaced that (and the tank) last year. Twice actually...the first RockAuto low-pressure pump was defective, so we upgraded a level and it has been working fine since then. 🤞
Question about that though...the vapor line (from the canister to the tank) has been severed. OK..."melted" (literally). A few months back (driving home from the mechanic) it caught fire. After that exciting night, one of the ODB1 codes I pulled pointed to the canister, and I traced that line back to under the passenger seat, left-hand rail (behind the high-pressure pump) and found that line had melted apart. We intend to replace it from a donor vehicle, but I'm wondering if the (lack of) vacuum may be causing a problem here?
 

Tiha

Well-known member
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Jul 22, 2020
Messages
1,086
Reaction score
1,113
Location
Midwest
pickup tube in tank can be blocked.

FPR bypassing everything.

Injector stuck open. But then it would end up in your oil pan, should be easy to see that one.

Just a couple of things to think about.

When testing the fuel pumps you are supposed to block the return line. This allows you to see dead head pressure and of course eliminates the FPR from the testing equation.
 

Tiha

Well-known member
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Jul 22, 2020
Messages
1,086
Reaction score
1,113
Location
Midwest
We replaced that (and the tank) last year. Twice actually...the first RockAuto low-pressure pump was defective, so we upgraded a level and it has been working fine since then. 🤞
Question about that though...the vapor line (from the canister to the tank) has been severed. OK..."melted" (literally). A few months back (driving home from the mechanic) it caught fire. After that exciting night, one of the ODB1 codes I pulled pointed to the canister, and I traced that line back to under the passenger seat, left-hand rail (behind the high-pressure pump) and found that line had melted apart. We intend to replace it from a donor vehicle, but I'm wondering if the (lack of) vacuum may be causing a problem here?
Vacuum will not affect fuel pressure, and if the system is working correctly it should not affect starting. At least it shouldn't.

Sounds like it has been a long frustrating battle. I feel your pain.

Replaced a fuel pump one time and truck wouldn't start. We knew it was fuel pressure related. It took repeated attempts to figure it out. In the end we had to run the new fuel pump in a bucket to see it was leaking out the side of the case. So the new pump was bad.
I have gotten so many bad, New brand name parts lately it makes me want to just stop working on stuff.
 

chrlsful

Active member
Joined
Oct 13, 2009
Messages
432
Reaction score
218
Location
S. Amherst, MA 01002-1827
gettin tired of it by now, I'm sure. I love the lill bronk2.
Here's some cheer to motivate:
even post 'em on insights. He's very giving w/advice...
 

Bullet Bill

New member
Joined
Apr 21, 2022
Messages
1
Reaction score
0
Location
Isle of Hope
gettin tired of it by now, I'm sure. I love the lill bronk2.
Here's some cheer to motivate:
even post 'em on insights. He's very giving w/advice...
I had a similar issue on an 88. It was a ~16 ha ground from the battery entering the wire harness that was not connected well.
I replaced relays and fuel pump before I found the issue.
Bullet
 

L\Bronco

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 28, 2022
Messages
805
Reaction score
858
Location
A.B. Canada
I agree with Tiha. Check for 12v at the red wire on one of the injectors, that will tell you if the EEC power relay is on (Key on)
If not, make sure that the blk\LT grn wire at the EEC power relay (BROWN) is grounded. It should be a fairly big wire right at the batt neg cable. If memory serves me, its a plastic single pin inline connector pretty close to the batt with the BLK\GRN wire running through it, they used to corrode inside and the EEC system can't power up.
Hope that helps
Cheers
That is the blk/lt grn wire near the battery neg cable, it grounds the eec power relay, some of the pcm and the O2 sensor(s)
It would corrode inside the inline connector which is fairly close to the battery
 
OP
OP
J

Jbrownjr

Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2021
Messages
46
Reaction score
13
Location
Kuna, Idaho
@Tiha - I'd never heard of blocking the return line. In my case, since it's melted/sealed...I can check that off the list. 😁
Speaking of fuel pump testing:

Low pressure: 1 pint/15 seconds. Tested good. (Disconnected the fuel line right before the high-pressure pump, after the fuel filter. Seems like both components are good. Not surprising as we replaced the filter last summer and haven't driven more than 20 miles since then)
High pressure: 1 pint/10 seconds. Tested good. (Disconnected the fuel line right after the high-pressure pump.)

I decided to try testing Fuel Pressure again. 0 psi. However, this time I heard a hissing noise from under the hood. Found fuel on the fuel rail, as if it was coming from the Schrader valve. Assuming the brass adapter (part of the fuel pressure tester) needed to be more than hand-tight, I grabbed a crescent wrench and attempted to snug that up. (There wasn't much resistance...'finger tight') After a half-dozen turns it wasn't snugging up so I backed off. Metal threads fell out of the brass adapter. :( We replaced the original Schrader stem/valve because the stem was stuck open...from a donor vehicle. Looks like we need to find another.
 

goodO1boydws

Active member
Joined
Apr 22, 2022
Messages
161
Reaction score
149
Location
East Tennessee
Did I mention we've been at this for more than a year?
Did I mention on more than one occasion we end up following the same (basic) troubleshooting steps because the same symptoms appear?
Feels like a game of whack-a-mole...and after a while it's no longer fun. (Keep your sense of humor Jack 😬)

I did mention that 2 weeks ago fuel pressure was between 35-40psi, right? :rolleyes:
Fuel pressure: 0 psi just now.

I have to ground the Tan/lg wire at the diag connector, so that when the key is on the pump runs. (We'll fix that after it starts)
Yes, I hear the High-pressure and low-pressure pumps running.
Yes, I confirmed the pressure gauge is working on one of the tire's Schrader valves.
Yes, fresh gas was added a few weeks ago, so the tank isn't dry either. (still some stale fuel? Yes)
This is actually good news!

Since we've been here before, I'll go back to basic troubleshooting by removing sections of the fuel line between the tank and fuel rail.
(Fuel filter? clogged line? FPR?)

I also borrowed a noid light set, so I can test the FI 'the right way'.

Progress!

I read through most of this thread, (I read you've been at it a year,) and someone may have already mentioned all of these things, but read it through-it may spark another idea.

It really sounds as though the main issue is electrical, and that its intermittently affecting the ignition system. (Intermittent is often a sneaky bitch.) When focussing on a specific problem area its easy to overlook basics.
Maybe a step back and some rethinking is in order.

Your B2 is over 30 years old, so preventative maintenance stopped a long time ago, and everything on the vehicle was an in an unknown state when you got the vehicle, so the probablility that nothing is working OPTIMALLY is something to keep mind. (You're now in the unhappy position of hoping for the best without necessarily wanting to catch up for all maintenance that was NOT done through the years.)

Definitely basic, but have you gone through the vehicle and CLEANED/BURNISHED ALL the ground and power connections you can access, taking apart ALL the electrical connectors- those in the engine compartment for a start. And any self grounded components too Then all those under the dash, and the ICM. Then the fuel pump grounds. (If a circuit ground is weak sometimes the current will find a different/better grounding point where it should NOT be connected and in doing that, can affect other unrelated circuits.)

Sometimes thermal expansion can cause a ground OR power connection to become EITHER looser or tighter, and if one is already marginal connected or partially corroded, a couple thousandths of an inch can make all the difference. And rain or high humidity can sometimes make a bad ground or power connection better, but the saem connection can revert to intermittent or bad once it dries out-such as after the engine has run for a while. And don't just take connectors apart, after they are clean and while they are open use some dielectrical grease so you won't have to go back trying to find the ONE that oxidizes AFTER you checked it. (The turn signals, side indicators, headlights and stop lights are particularly vulnerable to corrosion.)

One ground that's often overlooked is the body to frame one, a flat bare strap that's below the heater housing. Another is the OEM one piece ground cable assembly that not only bolts to the frame, but has a pigtail going to the wiring harness at that point and the main cable continues to the starter. That pigtail can cause havoc if it isn't grounded.

You mentioned the distributor being replaced.
Was it new or remanufactured?
Was the ignition module replaced too?
(Don't rule out even a new module-that could be bad/intermittent straight from the box.)
(Also starter solenoids can malfunction from the get go.)
This distributor location makes it subject to overheating which has sent millions of distributor mounted Ford ignition modules to an early grave. (MOST OFTEN the modules don't fail entirely, but begin their downward spiral by acting erratically, causing intermittant ignition problems, such as sudden COMPLETE ignition failure followed by working properly again once cooled down. ( It wouldn't hurt to make sure the protective grease is between the module and the distributor.)

Another maddening possibility is the TPS, which, like the ignition module, is well known to NOT to fail entirely, (and is also subject to intermittent heat-related failure, then works after cooling down) but often starts acting erratically or, interestingly, sometimes develops a "flat spot" where its signal strength suddenly drops off at a specific accelerator position or rpm and whose signal then resumes increasing instead of smoothly and steadily increasing as you press the accellerator further through its travel.

Of course the spark plug wires, especially the distributor to coil wire if old or oil soaked.
The ignition switch, neutral safety switch, a weak or bad connection AT the fuse block, all are basic items to check. (They have probably all been.)

PS, the distrbutor itself can contribute to the problem if its cap is carbon tracking .
 
Last edited:
OP
OP
J

Jbrownjr

Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2021
Messages
46
Reaction score
13
Location
Kuna, Idaho

goodO1boydws - Thanks for taking the time to walk through the possibilities. It's been over a year, so I don't think I could enumerate everything we checked/replaced...but your list does sound very familiar. "Electrical" is where the last (3rd) mechanic left us when we replaced the wiring harness. Seems like a shotgun approach given we just introduced a dozen new connectors; but it was definitely in better shape than the original.


I actually started inventorying the parts we replaced along the way. A few we replaced under warranty, losing a little confidence when the low pressure pump (from Rock Auto) turned out to be DOA. Since then we've been careful to test/diagnose one-by-one rather than going crazy (or salvaging the darn thing). So each of the parts you mentioned that may contribute have already been replaced. (Rock Auto, O'Reilly's exclusively. Easier to return under warranty while we continue troubleshooting) Grounds also verified (over-and-over...suspecting electrical problems). At this point I'm thinking we can be more focused that checking/cleaning every connector.

Update: Replaced the Schrader valve, and still 0 psi. tapping the needle, gas does come out. At one point last year I did that, and saw a pretty strong stream. This time, it's pretty weak. (i.e. 'low pressure') Now...why? Electrical or mechanical, the (System) engineer in me is betting there are only a couple failure points we can focus on...step-by-step. FPR was replaced last year as well. While the pumps are running if I squeeze that hose I feel pulsating. That blue line is coming from the HP fuel pump into the rail. Is it possible the FPR is 'stuck open' and not holding the 40 psi?
 

Attachments

  • 20220502_210113.jpg
    20220502_210113.jpg
    316.1 KB · Views: 3

goodO1boydws

Active member
Joined
Apr 22, 2022
Messages
161
Reaction score
149
Location
East Tennessee
I'm going to go out on a limb here and for the moment pretend both pumps are working properly and that there is no fuel blockage/restriction in the system.

If that's the case the FPR could simply have a slow leak and that could let fuel pressure leak down and fuel leak BACK when the engine is shut off. Its also possible to have a single sticky injector leak fuel into one cylinder and bleed off fuel pressure as a result. (ONE different looking spark plug-less carbon or a whiter insulator, would usually be the result of that one sticky injector.)

IF either of those 2 things is happenning, it may occasionally just take a couple of cycles of turning the ignition switch on for a few seconds and then off again to repressurize the fuel rail. If everything ELSE is working properly the engine should then be able to start and probably run ok. That is someting most people could live with-a minor annoyance.

I'd try that first.

(That "pressure leakdown syndrome" has happened to me for different reasons at different times.)

If this works and you're at the end of your rope with OTHER annoyances, to lower your stress level you might want to hot wire the fuel pump circuit and use a hidden manual switch to control the pumps. (That makes the vehicle harder to steal too.) Just don't forget and leave the pumps running after you shut the engine off for the day off-you'll **** the battery. This would be easy to do if you aren't parked in an extremely quiet place. Ask me how I know.

One feature of having a manual pump switch that is that you can walk around the vehicle to check if one more or both of the pumps are running STEADILY or not by listening for changes in the pitch of each pump. An iffy ground or power wire hiding in the fuel pump circuit might become evident that way.

If it STILL doesn't pressurize the fuel rail at the Schrader valve when both pumps are turned on manually and you can HEAR them both running STEADILY its just about certain to be either a NON-EFFECTIVE but working fuel pump, a clogged fuel filter or a clogged in-tank filter sock. Or a blocked or crimped fuel line.

About fuel filters. Funny story (now).
I had just rebuilt a truck engine for a friend of ours and test drove it before giving it back to them. A couple days later I hear that their truck kept dying after running fine for a few minutes. A partially clogged fuel filter. Which they swore they'd just replaced. I changed the filter myself with a GOOD filter. A couple days later did it again. Another partially clogged fuel filter. Hmmm. Ok, now I cut the filter open. Turned out their OLD truck's gas tank was rusty from sitting for 2 YEARS with a half tank of ethanol-laced gas, which it wasn't originally designed to hold. And which they hadn't told me about. The rust was fine enough to make it through the tank sock and all the way up to the fuel filter in the engine compartment.

You could also try checking the front pump's output volume (or even better the pressure if you can get hold of a fuel pressure gauge) as it exits the pump before the FPR and comparing that to the volume after the FPR.

P.S. I never met anyone before whose fingers were a fuel pressure gauge. Kinda handy.
 
Last edited:

Tiha

Well-known member
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Jul 22, 2020
Messages
1,086
Reaction score
1,113
Location
Midwest
I think the next step is to block off the blue return line. Gently pinch it with a vise grips with pumps running and see if pressure comes up.

If it does then FPR is bad.
 
OP
OP
J

Jbrownjr

Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2021
Messages
46
Reaction score
13
Location
Kuna, Idaho
Blocked the blue line with vise grips as advised. Still 0 psi at the fuel rail.
Where else can the pressure be going?
(assuming the pumps are operating as expected based on the flow test I did a few weeks ago...1 pint/15 seconds from the low-pressure pump, after the filter, and 1 pint/10 seconds after the high pressure pump)

Reading elsewhere advice like 'remove the gas cap'. (No change)
With the pumps running I depressed the Schrader valve pin and fuel did come spewing out. (Some pressure)
I did a voltage test on the high-pressure pump with the key on (still jumped the circuit at the fuel relay connector) and read 11.5 volts.

Is it possible the flow is good, but under pressure the high-pressure pump just can't push enough pressure?
Or something else constricting the line between the high-pressure pump and the fuel rail?
I'm feeling and hearing fuel pulsate...when I apply pressure to that rubber section of the fuel line at the FPR I can hear the high-pressure pump whine a little (making it work harder by constricting the line?)

Heading out tomorrow for a week's vacation. Maybe the time away will result in some brilliant thought. 🤷‍♂️
 

Motech

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 21, 2021
Messages
494
Reaction score
585
Location
Santa Cruz, CA:
You've covered every fuel delivery angle here, and with the pressure you can produce, I'd say your pumps and lines are not your tormentors.

Bears repeating:
That pigtail ground off battery negative can cause all kinds of skulduggery, ESPECIALLY lost relay ground triggers. Can't stress that bugger enough.

And a weak PIP signal can cause similar grief. That's the Profile Ignition Pickup, AKA distributor pickup coil, AKA ignition stator, AKA crankshaft (and camshaft) position sensor. It's analog, which computer can't read, so TFI converts it to digital, sends it to PCM, where then it is used it to send a SPOUT (Spark Output) signal back to TFI, which in turn uses that to fire coil and control dwell/timing. That PIP signal is passed around like a bottle of Boone's at a teenage bonfire, as PCM also uses it to turn on fuel and fire off injectors too, and by the time the converted and pinballed signal gets to coil trigger mode, it's loaded and weak. Cranking will often produce a deceptively fair looking coil spark, but put that coil wire back on it's cap tower and fugetaboudid, just pffft.

You can unload that wore out PIP and possibly give it enough strength to be processed all the way through and fire off your plugs and injectors by disconnecting the SPOUT connector, the timing plug. This takes the PCM out of the mix, and with dad off his back, he swells out twice as wide with more square shoulders, and just might fire that 2.9 back up!

I know, I know, you have a new distributor in there, or re-manufactured perhaps. Thing is, those rebuilders test PIP resistance, and if in spec, leave the old PIP in there. If Cap'n Picard learned anything out there, it's The Borgs' standard motto: Resistance Is Futile, and ohms testing should not be used in about 80% of the charts that send you there. (That foolishness rankles my brown eye) Besides, leaving it in there saves them a bunch of time pressing gear off shaft to replace it, opening up more worm cans for you the end user, but making them production heroes how fast they churn them out.

So make sure your battery pigtail ground is impeccable, and if she still won't fire and you got fuel coming in, unplug your timing connector and see what you get.

And if it STILL won't fire, first make sure that your distributor shaft/rotor is turning. (reman'd distributor drive gear pins can and do shear off for various reasons, mostly due to improper assembly when shaft is removed) If so, if it's spinning, it could be PIP is dead now. Which makes a pile of sense when you consider it is used for coil firing, injector firing AND... (you've waited for it this long) grounding the fuel pump relay.

Yes, again now, the PCM needs to see PIP to ground fuel pump relay. It will still prime-ground it KOEO, but will not when cranking.

But there's an even bigger tell when it does not see PIP. It will show you something else:​
  • When cranking, with no PIP present, PCM will power your Check Engine light on.​
For clarity: Check Engine light will always turn off while cranking. Even if a code turns it on once running, PCM will always turn CEL off while cranking AS LONG AS A PIP SIGNAL IS PRESENT. The ONLY thing that causes CEL to come on while cranking is no PIP. This is true even on more modern mills with dedicated crank and cam sensors too.

Lost Crank/CKP/PIP signal will show up as CEL turned on while cranking, and nothing else will do that.


(Sorry, I can get a little logorrhean in shop trainer mode. I'm working on it. Brevity Motech. Brevitize)

In brevity then:
  1. Battery pigtail ground integrity
  2. Rotor is turning
  3. Will it start with SPOUT unplugged?
  4. If not, with SPOUT reconnected, is Check Engine light on while cranking?
I say PIP it... PIP it good!
 

Tiha

Well-known member
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Jul 22, 2020
Messages
1,086
Reaction score
1,113
Location
Midwest
With the return line plugged that leaves really only two things, fuel pump (s) or injector leak.

An injector leak, that bad, you would see and smell gasoline in your oil.

I would venture to say one of your pumps has failed again.

Of course, are you sure your pressure gauge is good?
 

goodO1boydws

Active member
Joined
Apr 22, 2022
Messages
161
Reaction score
149
Location
East Tennessee
Blocked the blue line with vise grips as advised. Still 0 psi at the fuel rail.
Where else can the pressure be going?
(assuming the pumps are operating as expected based on the flow test I did a few weeks ago...1 pint/15 seconds from the low-pressure pump, after the filter, and 1 pint/10 seconds after the high pressure pump)

Reading elsewhere advice like 'remove the gas cap'. (No change)
With the pumps running I depressed the Schrader valve pin and fuel did come spewing out. (Some pressure)
I did a voltage test on the high-pressure pump with the key on (still jumped the circuit at the fuel relay connector) and read 11.5 volts.

Is it possible the flow is good, but under pressure the high-pressure pump just can't push enough pressure?
Or something else constricting the line between the high-pressure pump and the fuel rail?
I'm feeling and hearing fuel pulsate...when I apply pressure to that rubber section of the fuel line at the FPR I can hear the high-pressure pump whine a little (making it work harder by constricting the line?)

Heading out tomorrow for a week's vacation. Maybe the time away will result in some brilliant thought.

Something's not right here.

You wrote:
"Blocked the blue line with vise grips as advised. Still 0 psi at the fuel rail." (Note: this was advised to be done with pumps running.)

But then then you wrote:
"With the pumps running I depressed the Schrader valve pin and fuel did come spewing out. (Some pressure)"

The FPR is immediately before the fuel rail.
If its not letting any fuel pass through it, it will shunt all fuel flow into the return line-which would result in a "0 psi " condition anywhere after the FPR.

If the FPR is functioning properly, fuel will pass through it until the pressure in the fuel rail builds to 40psi and THEN shunt any additional flow through the return line. That 40 psi pressure the TPR senses can be coming from all fuel or a little fuel and a lot of trapped air, or all air.

Is it possible that when you were crimping the fuel return line, the fuel rail was empty of fuel (or nearly empty) so what you were getting when you opened the Schrader valve momentarily was AIR and no fuel, which you took for "no fuel coming out= no pressure".
And that maybe it was simply because the valve hadn't been open long enough for the trapped air to be repaced by fuel.

Even if every component of the fuel supply system was working properly, both electrical and mechanical, this scenario could explain the contrary results you got.........as far as fuel pressure in the fuel rail is concerned.
 
Last edited:

Tiha

Well-known member
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Jul 22, 2020
Messages
1,086
Reaction score
1,113
Location
Midwest
You know that is a good thought, is the rail or FPR plugged with garbage?
 
OP
OP
J

Jbrownjr

Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2021
Messages
46
Reaction score
13
Location
Kuna, Idaho
You've covered every fuel delivery angle here, and with the pressure you can produce, I'd say your pumps and lines are not your tormentors.

Bears repeating:
That pigtail ground off battery negative can cause all kinds of skulduggery, ESPECIALLY lost relay ground triggers. Can't stress that bugger enough.

And a weak PIP signal can cause similar grief. That's the Profile Ignition Pickup, AKA distributor pickup coil, AKA ignition stator, AKA crankshaft (and camshaft) position sensor. It's analog, which computer can't read, so TFI converts it to digital, sends it to PCM, where then it is used it to send a SPOUT (Spark Output) signal back to TFI, which in turn uses that to fire coil and control dwell/timing. That PIP signal is passed around like a bottle of Boone's at a teenage bonfire, as PCM also uses it to turn on fuel and fire off injectors too, and by the time the converted and pinballed signal gets to coil trigger mode, it's loaded and weak. Cranking will often produce a deceptively fair looking coil spark, but put that coil wire back on it's cap tower and fugetaboudid, just pffft.

You can unload that wore out PIP and possibly give it enough strength to be processed all the way through and fire off your plugs and injectors by disconnecting the SPOUT connector, the timing plug. This takes the PCM out of the mix, and with dad off his back, he swells out twice as wide with more square shoulders, and just might fire that 2.9 back up!

I know, I know, you have a new distributor in there, or re-manufactured perhaps. Thing is, those rebuilders test PIP resistance, and if in spec, leave the old PIP in there. If Cap'n Picard learned anything out there, it's The Borgs' standard motto: Resistance Is Futile, and ohms testing should not be used in about 80% of the charts that send you there. (That foolishness rankles my brown eye) Besides, leaving it in there saves them a bunch of time pressing gear off shaft to replace it, opening up more worm cans for you the end user, but making them production heroes how fast they churn them out.

So make sure your battery pigtail ground is impeccable, and if she still won't fire and you got fuel coming in, unplug your timing connector and see what you get.

And if it STILL won't fire, first make sure that your distributor shaft/rotor is turning. (reman'd distributor drive gear pins can and do shear off for various reasons, mostly due to improper assembly when shaft is removed) If so, if it's spinning, it could be PIP is dead now. Which makes a pile of sense when you consider it is used for coil firing, injector firing AND... (you've waited for it this long) grounding the fuel pump relay.

Yes, again now, the PCM needs to see PIP to ground fuel pump relay. It will still prime-ground it KOEO, but will not when cranking.

But there's an even bigger tell when it does not see PIP. It will show you something else:​
  • When cranking, with no PIP present, PCM will power your Check Engine light on.​
For clarity: Check Engine light will always turn off while cranking. Even if a code turns it on once running, PCM will always turn CEL off while cranking AS LONG AS A PIP SIGNAL IS PRESENT. The ONLY thing that causes CEL to come on while cranking is no PIP. This is true even on more modern mills with dedicated crank and cam sensors too.

Lost Crank/CKP/PIP signal will show up as CEL turned on while cranking, and nothing else will do that.


(Sorry, I can get a little logorrhean in shop trainer mode. I'm working on it. Brevity Motech. Brevitize)

In brevity then:
  1. Battery pigtail ground integrity
  2. Rotor is turning
  3. Will it start with SPOUT unplugged?
  4. If not, with SPOUT reconnected, is Check Engine light on while cranking?
I say PIP it... PIP it good!
@Motech - Thanks for the detail...reporting back:

  • Pigtail ground off the negative battery terminal is tight at the terminal (no corrosion), and we removed/wire-brushed both bolts which attach to the frame and engine. Clean, rust/dirt-free connections. No change in no-start behavior.
  • Unplugged the Spout connector. No change in no-start behavior.
  • CEL...typically it's a red light, and I don't see one. (bulb out?) I do see an "EMISS" light which comes on as the key reaches the "on" position, and briefly turns off as I rotate to the "start" position, when it lights again and stays lit. If this behavior is the same as CEL...then we also have a presumed good PIP signal.

🤔
 
OP
OP
J

Jbrownjr

Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2021
Messages
46
Reaction score
13
Location
Kuna, Idaho
You know that is a good thought, is the rail or FPR plugged with garbage?
@Tiha - Interesting...but since it was running a few months ago (albeit rough) my assumption is it's been clear of any obstruction. For this to be more interesting, whatever obstruction theoretically existed, would have had to come loose and now clog the fuel rail in some way. Remote possibility, but still possible. I'm heading out of town for a few days, so I'll have to table this one until the weekend.
 
OP
OP
J

Jbrownjr

Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2021
Messages
46
Reaction score
13
Location
Kuna, Idaho
Something's not right here.

You wrote:
"Blocked the blue line with vise grips as advised. Still 0 psi at the fuel rail." (Note: this was advised to be done with pumps running.)

But then then you wrote:
"With the pumps running I depressed the Schrader valve pin and fuel did come spewing out. (Some pressure)"

The FPR is immediately before the fuel rail.
If its not letting any fuel pass through it, it will shunt all fuel flow into the return line-which would result in a "0 psi " condition anywhere after the FPR.

If the FPR is functioning properly, fuel will pass through it until the pressure in the fuel rail builds to 40psi and THEN shunt any additional flow through the return line. That 40 psi pressure the TPR senses can be coming from all fuel or a little fuel and a lot of trapped air, or all air.

Is it possible that when you were crimping the fuel return line, the fuel rail was empty of fuel (or nearly empty) so what you were getting when you opened the Schrader valve momentarily was AIR and no fuel, which you took for "no fuel coming out= no pressure".
And that maybe it was simply because the valve hadn't been open long enough for the trapped air to be repaced by fuel.

Even if every component of the fuel supply system was working properly, both electrical and mechanical, this scenario could explain the contrary results you got.........as far as fuel pressure in the fuel rail is concerned.
I agree...'something's not right here'.

Perhaps you can correct my understanding here on the fuel direction. I see the blue line coming out of the HP fuel pump, heading toward the engine bay. (right?)
That blue line enters the fuel rail ('fuel rail before the FPR'?), and then the FPR, and then the return line back to the tank. If so, then the FPR becomes something of a relief valve...as pressure reaches 40 psi, it opens to allow some pressure to release and make it's way back to the tank?

Tonight, after the above tests, we still see 0 psi on the fuel pressure gauge. (Yes, validated it's accurate by testing tire pressure which exceeds 40 psi :))
After removing the fuel pressure gauge, depressing the schrader valve pin results in fuel shooting upward. There wasn't much (once we got over the initial surprise), so with the pump(s) running, depressing that pin resulted in a fair amount of fuel shooting upward out of the Schrader valve.

"Fuel Pressure", yes...but not enough to register more than 0 psi on the fuel gauge? :confused:

Nonetheless, suspecting the FPR. It was replaced about a year ago, and I suspect is still under warranty; but after replacing so many parts out of suspicion, it would be ideal to test the FPR and confirm it's failed before swapping another part. Other than pressurizing it (and seeing it open at 40 psi) - can we validate the FPR is bad?
 

goodO1boydws

Active member
Joined
Apr 22, 2022
Messages
161
Reaction score
149
Location
East Tennessee
I agree...'something's not right here'.

Perhaps you can correct my understanding here on the fuel direction. I see the blue line coming out of the HP fuel pump, heading toward the engine bay. (right?)
That blue line enters the fuel rail ('fuel rail before the FPR'?), and then the FPR, and then the return line back to the tank. If so, then the FPR becomes something of a relief valve...as pressure reaches 40 psi, it opens to allow some pressure to release and make it's way back to the tank?

Tonight, after the above tests, we still see 0 psi on the fuel pressure gauge. (Yes, validated it's accurate by testing tire pressure which exceeds 40 psi :))
After removing the fuel pressure gauge, depressing the schrader valve pin results in fuel shooting upward. There wasn't much (once we got over the initial surprise), so with the pump(s) running, depressing that pin resulted in a fair amount of fuel shooting upward out of the Schrader valve.

"Fuel Pressure", yes...but not enough to register more than 0 psi on the fuel gauge? :confused:

Nonetheless, suspecting the FPR. It was replaced about a year ago, and I suspect is still under warranty; but after replacing so many parts out of suspicion, it would be ideal to test the FPR and confirm it's failed before swapping another part. Other than pressurizing it (and seeing it open at 40 psi) - can we validate the FPR is bad?
I know that you mentioned trying starter fluid and that the engine did fire that way but didn't stay running.

Try this as a work around-nothing to lose.
It worked for me on my B2 for about a year when I couldn't figure out a starting problem with IT, (and didn't have anyone else around to help).

Pull off the air supply bellows and spray a goodly amount of either starter fluid OR the old type of choke/carb cleaner (the kind that's highly volatile) into the throttle body-while holding the throttle linkage wide open.

Run over and try to start it.
If it will run for even a couple seconds, that should give you (if working alone) enough time to run around and spray MORE into the throttle body, while working the linkage.

I don't know WHY it worked, but if I could get the engine to run for those first few critical seconds, and hit it with the second blast of spray while manually working the throttle linkage it would usually then KEEP running-for as long as I left the ignition on. I drove back and forth to town that way a bunch of times (20+ miles each way), and to a town 90+ miles away at least once, and some of the time it would restart normally while there, other times I had to repeat the procedure, but with less spray.

Sometimes it faltered and died while trying the second blast, but I eventually got the hang of how long it needed the INITIAL spray to be in order for it to keep running at a high enough rpm to still be turning over fast enough when I got the second spray into it.
 

Members online

No members online now.

Latest posts

Forum statistics

Threads
22,626
Messages
136,732
Members
25,290
Latest member
Gasman80
Top