Stalling/Hard starting

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renegadebronco

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I searched around and could not quite pinpoint what I might have going on, I have a 96 f-150 with a 5.8 fi 351w. E4OD auto trans. A few days ago on a drive up a snowy road I stopped because of a vehicle in front of me, when I came to a complete stop my engine stalled, when I went to restart it it would barely crank over like there was not enough power from the batt. to do so. After about 5 minutes of sitting my truck fired right up so my first thought was a charging problem. it has done this at least half a dozen times since then and it seems to be only when I have driven over a few miles and come to a complete stop with my tranny in gear. Today I replaced the battery and the alternator in hopes of solving the problem but had little to no results, just seems that now I can go about 10mi. Before the engine stalls and it has a little better time starting but not much, also another weird thing is that when my truck comes to an idle the oil pressure gauge erratically jumps around them when I accelerate it returns to the high side of "normal" again, seems electrical to me, or a sensor, voltage regulator, starter sylonoid draw ? Can anyone help ?

 

Rons beast

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Welcome to the Zone.

I assume you had no CEL...and if you didn't I'm more inclined to suspect the battery ground. My 96 5.0 did very similar things.....was the battery ground cable.

Good Luck

Let Us know how things work out.

 
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renegadebronco

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I forgot to mention there is also a ticking noise coming from the bell housing/torque converter and what is strange to me that makes me think its something other than just a battery ground is that it will only do it after engine is up to op temp and has been driven a few miles so could it have anything to do with the tq converter at all ? Premature lockup ? I'm sorry CPL... ?

 

Rons beast

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CEL= check engine light

My problem would occur after warm up as well. The extra heat would cause expansion just enough to make for a poor ground...that would cause problems with the guages and a hard to no start condition.

Don't think the converter would be an issue, especially with no CEL.

The other issues I have found.....fuel perculation, ( getting heated from an exhaust leak) and Ignition control module.

 
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renegadebronco

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Over the summer it was doing something similar and did throw a torque converter code one time but hasn't since. When it threw the code I noticed the trans fluid was a little low so I re filled and it acted fine up until now.

 

Seabronc

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Sounds like you want it to be the torque converter. Do what Ron said first. Check the condition of the battery ground first. Look at the cable where the lugs attach and see if they are corroded. If so, replace the cable. Also, if you didn't have to replace the cable, remove the connections at the frame and engine block, clean up and re-attach the cable. If that doesn't correct the problem then look into something else as the cause. Grounds cause a batch of crazy problems.

Good luck,

:)>-

 
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renegadebronco

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I pulled the ground off of the block today and no signs of corrosion just some oil buildup, I cleaned it and connected it, went for a drive and not much different, hasn't stalled yet but the gauges are still going crazy. For the sake of them being so cheap I'm going to go buy a new ground and pigtail wire tomorrow and try that. As far as signs leading to the converter which makes me think it could have a hand in the overall problem, ticking noise coming from the bell housing, shuddering at take off, previous tq converter code.... and since it only wants to stall in gear it leads me to think that maybe it could be a factor. Are there any other ground points that would cause this other than just the main batt ground ?

 
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renegadebronco

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A couple months ago, and I had to add a couple quarts. Transmission shop guy also recommended a front pump in this particular tranny if it has never been done. I'm new to automatics so I think this is why I'm having a difficult time figuring all this out, I miss my trusty ol NP435 I had I'm my 80 but I've heard good things about the E4OD

 

Seabronc

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I pulled the ground off of the block today and no signs of corrosion just some oil buildup, I cleaned it and connected it, went for a drive and not much different, hasn't stalled yet but the gauges are still going crazy. For the sake of them being so cheap I'm going to go buy a new ground and pigtail wire tomorrow and try that. As far as signs leading to the converter which makes me think it could have a hand in the overall problem, ticking noise coming from the bell housing, shuddering at take off, previous tq converter code.... and since it only wants to stall in gear it leads me to think that maybe it could be a factor. Are there any other ground points that would cause this other than just the main batt ground ?
There are a couple of other grounds you may want to check that I forgot to mention, sorry. One is the ground strap from the intake manifold to the fire wall and the other would be the dash ground which connects to a brace in the center under the dash.

Good luck,

:)>-

 

miesk5

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yo,

Have you had the charging & Starting systems checked for free yet at AZ, NAPA, etc?

If all is good...

Although there is no CEL Lit, do a Self Test for Codes; by our friend here, BroncoJoe19

do the KOEO = Key On Engine Off portion first

& Remember to have engine @ Normal Operating Temperature before doing the KEY ON ENGINE RUNNING (KOER) portion

Post any Code(s) found here

Torque Converter Operation Test & Cutaway Depiction;

"...

Torque Converter Operation Test

This test verifies that the torque converter clutch control system and the torque converter are operating correctly.

1. Carry out Quick Test with scan tool. For additional information, refer to the Powertrain Control/Emissions Diagnosis manual (PCED). Check for DTCs.

2. Connect a tachometer to the engine.

3. Bring the engine to normal operating temperature by driving the vehicle at highway speeds for approximately 15 minutes in (D) position.

4. After normal operating temperature is reached, maintain a constant vehicle speed of about 80 km/h (50 mph) and tap brake pedal with the left foot.

5. Engine rpm should increase when brake pedal is tapped, and decrease about five seconds after pedal is released. If this does not occur, see torque converter operation concerns.

6. If the vehicle stalls in (D) or manual 2 at idle with vehicle at a stop, move the transmission range selector lever to manual 1 position. If the vehicle stalls, see torque converter operation concerns.

7. If the vehicle exhibits a vibration during the road test complete the Road Test Evaluation Form. This form will aid the technician in determining the source of the vibration.

If the shudder occurs

a) during the 3-4 or 4-3 shift at HEAVY throttle, or

B) at 40mph in 2, OD OFF, and OD, or

c) at the same RPM in every gear, or d) coasting, cruising, or

in R, or e) during extended light braking, then it is NOT TC clutch shudder;

The following is a list of common vehicle concerns that have been misdiagnosed as torque converter clutch shudder. For diagnosis of the following items, refer to the appropriate sections of the workshop manual and the Powertrain Control/Emissions Diagnosis manual (PCED).

Spark plugs - check for cracks, high resistance or broken insulators.

Plug wires.

Fuel injector - filter may be plugged.

Fuel contamination - engine runs poorly.

EGR valve - valve may let in too much exhaust gas and cause engine to run lean.

Vacuum leak - engine will not get correct air/fuel mixture.

MAP/MAF sensor - improper air/fuel mixture.

HO2S sensor - too rich/lean air/fuel mixture.

Fuel pressure - may be too low. Engine mounts -loose/damaged mounts can cause vibration concerns. Axle joints - check for vibration..."

Source: by Ford via Steve83 (Steve, That dirty old truck) at SuperMotors.net

========

re; "...comes to an idle the oil pressure gauge erratically jumps around them when I accelerate it returns to the high side of "normal" again...

Check sender connector/wiring.

Sender Failure; "Corrosion or faulty electrical connections; If the oil pressure gauge is pegged low after the engine is running, or is pegged high after the engine is running, or if there is intermittent illumination of an oil pressure indicator light, the sender could be faulty. Related Components to Check; All appropriate electrical connections to and from the sender The oil pressure gauge or indicator light; Appropriate fuses (see Shop or Owner’s Manual for fuse layout)..." miesk5 Note; enter applicable info for year, etc.

Source: by MOTORCRAFT®

Overview in 92-96; "The oil pressure system uses a switch and a fixed resistor; the resistor is attached to the engine wiring harness. A primary magnet, to which a shaft and pointer are attached, rotates to align this primary field, resulting in pointer position. The bobbin/coil assembly is pressed into a metal housing which has two holes for dial mounting. There are no adjustment calibrations or maintenance required for this gauge; Oil Pressure Sender - The oil pressure sender controls the magnetic oil pressure gauge's pointer position. The oil pressure sender (switch) closes under normal engine operating conditions. The oil pressure sender opens with the engine off and no oil pressure..." read more

Source: by Steve83 @ http://www.supermotors.net/registry/media/788623

 
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renegadebronco

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Final Diagnosis = oil pump. Result = engine seized. Stalling I'm guessing was to poor oil pressure when the engine reached op temp so expansion of the piston rings due to friction caused enough drag for the engine to stall, then in order for it to start again I'd have to wait until the engine cooled enough to allow things to contract then it would it allow me to start it again. The pump finally seized driving up a long steep grade on through highway around here, made it to the top where the engine stalled, pegged hot, oil boiling, coolant boiling and not a chance of turning over. $200 and a wrecker later I was home. Good time. Now my question is going from an efi 351 to an efi 460. Any good links on that ?

 

Elmo

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temp guage peged and coolant boiling would be a sign of thermostst or head gasket or water pump...... not a siezed oil pump but either way i guess the engine siezed up and still puts you in the same prediciment sorry. Miesk5 has a wealth of info on his site on the 460 swap. good luck and have fun

 

Rons beast

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Ditto, Elmo. The rings get oil from splash. The pump shouldn't effect them. You would have to get really hot to boil oil, and I cant believe that the CEL didn't come on prior to the breakdown.

Keep us informed on the results of your teardown.

 

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