Does new starter need shims?

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1984 Ford Bronco XLT 5.8L 351 Windsor.

I'm at the end of my rebuild. I replaced the automatic transmission because the driver side bell housing bolts and guide pin had been cracked and alignment would be out causing the flexplate to warp and fracture and could cause other damage to the engine. Now I've just filled the tranny and started the engine for the first time with the new tranny (new to me). The starter engaging the flexplate sounds off to me. It sounds too loud when it cranks and sounds like it slams into the flexplate teeth prior to cranking.

I've gone through 2 flexplates with the old engine and tranny and 2 or 3 starters. Maybe it's coincidence, but after installing the last starter in the old engine/tranny, it also seemed to slam and crank hard followed soon after with the shearing of the flexplate. I seem to remember not hearing the starter strain like that before.

I'm wondering if a shim is required? It didn't have any when I got the truck but that doesn't mean I don't need them. I bought the last few starters from advanced auto parts.

I'd appreciate any thoughts on cause and effect... I could be missing something. If I do require shims, where can I get them or how can I fab them.

Thank you.

 
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Since this is a High Output 351W, I've read that it requires a high torque starter. Is this the 10-tooth starter? I remember having good results with my local napa and I just called them and they have a standard 9-tooth and an alternate 10-tooth starter for this year. Perhaps I replaced the 10-tooth starter from napa with a 9-tooth starter from advanced auto parts which only showed a 9-tooth starter in their database?

 

miesk5

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Yo,

If the starter is engaging too hard, install shims at the mounting point. If there’s not enough engagement, the starter is not catching enough teeth on the flexplate, and you’ll need to remove the shims.

Call

http://www.powermastermotorsports.com

Ask them about the proper high torque starter, aka Permanent Magnet Gear Reduction (PMGR) starter and your High Output 351W.

They have an on line catalog, but I can't view it well.

...

For posterity;

Drives, Exploded, Ford 2 bolt type, Shims needed due to worn ****** bearings in engine; "...This condition is the result of the drive engaging too deeply into the flywheel. The face of the drive is rubbing on the flywheel and gradually cutting into the cover that holds the drive together. Eventually, it cuts through and the drive comes apart. The damage is not caused by a problem with the starter. It is because the flywheel is floating as a result of worn ****** bearings, located inside the engine block, whose function is to keep the crankshaft centered. This wear can be enough to cause starter and ring gear engagement problems on an engine with 60,000 or more miles. It might take a long time to destroy the original starter, but when a new unit is installed, the drive can be quickly destroyed. Therefore, it is important to properly diagnose this problem when inspecting the customers original core rather than providing him a replacement unit. Shims are availalbe from OCA, part number F.S.S.2B

Source: by mrreman.com

Drives, Exploded, Ford 2 bolt type, 2.3 mm (.090) "...On engines with worn ****** bearings, the excessive crankshaft end play may cause pinion damage when the flywheel moves toward the starter. The 76-2306 helps prevent pinion damage by backing the starter away from the crankshaft flywheel..."

Source: by wai-wetherill

Shims for Ford 2 bolt type, WAI PN 76-2306; "Shims needed due to worn ****** bearings in engine; Replaces Ford D7TZ-11N004; 2.3mm (.090 in.) T; Used w/ 2 or 3-hole D.E. housings. On engines with worn ****** bearings, the excessive crankshaft end play may cause pinion damage when the flywheel moves toward the starter. The 76-2306 helps prevent pinion damage by backing the starter away from the crankshaft flywheel..."

Source: by wai-wetherill

 
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I looked at the catalog but it was just basic info. I'll call them tomorrow. This is a new re-manufactured 351W with zero miles, new harmonic balancer. The offset is 5/8" from starter mount to flexplate. I've included photos of the teeth. The offset should be 3/4". So it looks like I need to shim 1/8" of an inch? I never needed shims before and I didn't inspect the last good fitting starter before returning it as a core.

I've looked up the high torque starters and it seems they are 10 tooth. Is that right? The starter I have is 9 tooth.

I'm wondering if my problem is the wrong number of teeth or I have the correct number of teeth but it needs to be shimmed.

I just checked my local advanced auto and they have 3/32" 2-bolt ford shims for $6. I'll pick one up in the morning and install it then I'll let you know how it went.

Thank you.

1a.jpg

1b.jpg

1c.jpg

 
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miesk5

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Yo,

I don't know about the # of teeth. Others have installed the PMGR starter in years such as:

78 with a 460 swap w/C6, used the Powermaster 9505 XS Torque Starter see pics @

http://www.supermotors.net/registry/15145/59712

90 5.8 stroked to 408 w/E4OD, PMGR High Torque Mini Starter no brand name nor part number, Pioneer Heavy Duty Flexplate,

high-torque-mini-starter.jpg

and a 79 with undisclosed engine type,

None have cited teeth #. Nor have they mentioned fitment issues, such as offset or shims.

Powermaster can help with your questions.

In their FAQ page they advise, "The pinion is too far away on my 9000 or 9004. What do I do?

The 9000 and 9004 starters have a block on the front that mounts the starter to the engine. Between this block and the starter are two shims. To remove these shims, remove the block from the starter by removing the three socket head bolts, remove the shim on the blck and the one in the bearing bore, and reassemble the block and starter. This will increase the pinion's depth of engagement by 1/16" approximately."

 
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Thank you for the replies. I did install a 3/32 ford shim and I didn't notice as much initial slamming but is still sounds pretty loud when it cranks over.

Kenh... that was a great thread. I think it may be my problem. I've replaced the ignition module a few times and it hasn't started right since then. That fellow went through every hoop and then some but the final solution of the module retarding the timing causing the late start condition makes perfect sense. I have the blue stamped modules.

Rockauto has the yellow connector ignition modules for my vehicle for $14. I ordered it to arrive tuesday. I'll keep my fingers crossed.

 
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kenh

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If I had the problems he did, I believe a fire started with 50 gallons of Diesel would have occurred!

 
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Well I got to the bottom of and it starts like it's supposed. First I figured out that the 351W H.O. requires a high torque starter and Napa indicated it was a 10-tooth high torque starter.

1. I bought a 3/32" 2-bolt ford shim.

2. I bought the 10-tooth high torque starter from Napa.

3. I mounted the shim with the starter bolts and saw that the shield between the engine and bell housing was off center pushing the starter up and in toward the flexplate.

    Same with the bolt holes. I took my chain saw file and opened up the shield starter and bolt holes to be even with the shim.

4. I bought a yellow tab ignition module.

No more slamming or excessive loud cranking.

I will keep the shim because the starter works well with it. If it had been missing the flexplate teeth I would have taken it out.

Opening up the shield to match the shim ID was a good idea and the 10-tooth high torque starter starts it very quick.

The yellow tab ignition module is probably not needed as I detect the starter still spinning after the engine starts.

I'm very happy to have solved this problem.

 

johnnyreb

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Is it a Jasper motor? A cousin of mine .Went through 5 of them .Before he got a good one. I never did have any good luck out of NAPA and Interstate battery,s. I got so mad at the last NAPA BATTERY. I took it out back and shot it with my 12 ga. so noe body else would have any trouble with it. The first night it froze up. I took it bqack and they wouldn,t replace it.Said I put water in it. I told them like ****. I took it staright to my truck and installed it. If WATER WAS ADDED TO IT. tHEY DID IT,BUT DON,T WORRY. i WON,T BUY ANOTHER napa BATTERY AND HAVEN,T SINCE.tHAT WAS BACK IN 1972. Alot of these parts Advance Auto and other parts stores sale are China junk. The less you buy of it.The better off you are. Shope junk yards for American made parts--they are better then the junk you get at the parts stores.
 

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