new motor help

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hockeyfreak55

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i'm wanting to put a 460 motor in my 94 bronco, a do the occational mudding and off roading. if not the 460 maybe something bigger? should i go bigger (if so what size?) or just go with the 460?

 
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hockeyfreak55

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i do need i bigger engine i go just about every weekend and i need more power for some of the pits and slopes in my area.

what do you recomend

 

Bronc76

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the 460 swap to me is an fine choice and you can build it the way you want. I think broncobill and JSM has done the swap before, they can tell you more.

 

Justshootme84

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hockey, what set-up do you have on the 94 Bronco now? Like, what engine, tire size, mods, etc.? I wouldn't swap engines just because the one you have seems underpowered, but would go to a 460 if you're PRIMARY purpose is offroad or mud drags. i dropped the 460 in my 84 when i blew up the 351W, but still run the dog of a 351M in the 78 Bronco and 79 F-150. JSM84

 
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Broncobill78

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I'm just starting in on my 3rd. The 460 is a nice swap because it was an optional engine in the F-series trucks so it's pretty much a bolt-in. You can easily build the engine for almost an horsepower level you want & even with a basic/mild rebuild you're looking at an easy 400+ HP. The stock bottom end is good for 600hp, above that you need to start looking at main stubs & maybe a stud girdle.

As JSM noted, figure out what you really want to do with it first. If you DO a lot of mudding then it's hard the beat the HP & torque numbers a 460 can crank out.

My last two 460's were just basic performance rebuilds, the better of the two dyno'd out @ 430hp & 470lbs of torque. This time around I'm going with a stroker. Going with a 4.39" bore and a 4.5" stroke nets you a 545 and that's with only a .060" overbore. Kits (crank, rods & pistons) run about $1200 so you can build it anywhere from 502CID to 545CID for very close to the cost of your standard performance rebuild.

L&L products has complete swap kits that include motor mounts, oil pan, headers, oil filter relocation kit (only needed for 80-96 Broncos) and all the accessory brackets & hardware. The L&L kit makes the swap am effortless bolt-in. You *can* do it cheaper by scrounging factory parts but the L&L kit really is the way to go. I particularly like their fenderwell headers, getting the exhaust out from between the framerails make a big difference when you're under there working and it makes running your own exhaust *very* easy, no custom bending.

We were just discussing this recently in another thread & I posted an interesting article on stroking the 460 out to 540 using a collection of factory parts. The article is interesting but not necessarily relevant since it was written before the cheap Chinese crankshafts became so common.

http://broncozone.com/forums/index.php?sho...&hl=stroker

http://www.landlproducts.com/default.aspx

There are a couple other things to consider as well. Depending on what/who you go with for your swap parts (motor mounts, oil pan, headers, etc) you'll want to make sure you get as much info up front before committing yourself to engine/parts purchases. Both my 460 swaps used Lincoln engines and that led to some complications/additional expenses. The first time 'round I used factory 460 engine mounts and L&L's fenderwell headers. Unfortunately the combination didn't work out so well because L&L's mounts locate the engine a little lower than the Ford mounts. What this meant was that with the Ford mounts the header collectors would rattle & bang against the body mounts, a problem made worse by my cam selection & the lumpy idle it generated. A little bending & tweaking cleared the driver's side but I wound up having to notch the passenger side body mount to make it work. Also, using a Lincoln engine forced me to relocate all of the accessories. Again, the first time I tried getting away with just redrilling & spacing the 351M/400 bracketry but I never could get the belts to run true and ultimately I broke down & bought the L&L brackets which worked great. However by buying all my parts piece by piece I wound up paying more than I would have of I'd just bought the whole kit outright (which is what I did with the 2nd swap). Now I'm not sure just what the differences are other than accessory location but LMC Truck also sells engine mounts for this swap and they have a notation that they won't work with Lincoln engines, now as far as I know the motor mount bosses are the same on both Ford & Lincoln 460's which would mean the accessories are probably the issue. To try & make things easier on myself & my wallet this time I'm using a 460 sourced from an E350. Hopefully the front dress on this one will work without modification, it has the much better Saginaw power steering pump and it also has the rear sump oil pan, so by using the van as a donor I *should* be able to get away with just getting the motor mounts & headers from L&L and that'll be it.

 
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Justshootme84

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Something else to consider if you have to pay a shop to do the swap. It can easily run you over $1000 to pull the old motor and drop in the other one, then hook everything back up. Doing the work yourself is the way to go, except for the machining and perhaps the assembly of the longblock.

 
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hockeyfreak55

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sounds like the way to go my only problem is i've had problems with my transmission. should i also get a new transmission with the bigger motor? if so which one?

 

Broncobill78

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Well, if you're going to be changing motors then that's definitely the time to do the transmission since you'll have easy access to it. Without knowing more about your truck I have to make some assumptions but the basic info should still be helpful. You're going to have to make some decisions along the way as far as the engine/tranny goes. I assume you want to keep an overdrive transmission ? If this isn't an issue for you than a simple C6 is cheap to buy & can be rebuilt to take whatever HP your 460 puts out. The late 80's fuel injected 351W Broncos came with C6's so that would be the way to go for a donor since it'll already be setup with a tailshaft & housing to mate up with your transfer case. This will also be the way to go if you use a carb on the 460 instead of fuel injection. You can pretty much forget about the AOD, AOD-E & 4R70W because they don't have a big block bolt pattern. You *can* get a big block adapter ring for the AOD but the adapter itself runs $800 and rebuilding an AOD to survive behind a performance built 460 will cost enough to make you cuss & kick the dog. The E4OD is really the way to go. It's basically a C6 with a 4th gear & lockup converter. It was used with both 460's and powerstroke diesels so it's plenty strong enough although I'd still have a good rebuild done on it beforehand just to be able to throw it in there and forget about it. Chances are that you *already* have an E4OD in your truck now, unfortunately it'll have the small block bolt pattern so you'll have to change the bellhousing, or at least I hope you can. I've never worked with one of these tranny's (although I plan to, I really want overdrive in my 79' and will really need it with a 545 so I'd already been looking into this when you asked this question) yet so I can't tell you if the bellhousing is removable or not. This is one of the problems with an AOD swap, the bellhousing is part of the case and has to be cut off in order to change it. Anyways, you'll still need a big block bolt pattern whether you get it by changing the bellhousing, finding an adapter ring or just getting the proper transmission. E4OD tranny's are *not* cheap so maybe consider selling yours to finance part of the purchase price for a new one. Work out a swap with your local junkyard or put an ad in Craigslist a couple weeks before doing the swap so potential buyers have the chance to come down & ck out the tranny for leaks and see how it shifts & drives before you pull it out. I wouldn't recommend an AOD for *this* particular application because of the cost involved in buying the outrageously priced adapter lumped on top of an expensive rebuild for it to live behind a built 460 but if you're interested or even just curious here's a good write-up about putting one into a 78/79 with a 351M/400:

http://www.ford-trucks.com/article/idx/9/0...ord_Bronco.html

If you build a carb'd engine instead of going with a fuelie then that will effect the tranny. It won't make a lick of difference to a C6 or an AOD but the E4OD is computer controlled and the tranny & engine computers are piggybacked and inseparable. One won't work without the other. If you carb the engine then you'll lose the engine computer & that will take out the tranny computer. You can get around this by using a stand-alone box available from Beaumann, TCI and maybe someone else.

http://baumannengineering.com/tcs.htm

So in a nutshell a C6 will be the way to go if you don't want/need to keep the overdrive & if you DO want it then an E4OD is going to be your best choice. Either way I'd invest the time & $$$ in having it rebuilt and replacing it when you do the engine just to save yourself from doing a lot of hard work that you won't need to if you change it when you swap engines.

 
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Justshootme84

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sounds like the way to go my only problem is i've had problems with my transmission. should i also get a new transmission with the bigger motor? if so which one?
Yes, as BB78 stated your current tranny will not fit a 460 block. the bellhousing is not removeable on the C6, AOD oe E40D, but is on any of the manual ones.

 

Broncobill78

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One more thing that I should have mentioned up front. If/when you decide for sure that you want to go the 460 route you'll want to spend some time over at the 460 forum. www.460ford.com some of the best & most knowledgeable 460 builders in the country hang out over there and it's not only a fantastic source of information but since a number of premier builders are there it's a great place to hook up with parts like stroker kits or matched intake/cam/valvetrain combos. It's much better to do business with guys who are active builders and make themselves available to answer questions & offer advise as well as being able to offer you better prices than a lot of the online warehouse type places.

http://460ford.com/forum/index.php

 
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89Bronco58

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GEARS can play a big part in cases like this. Look at my rig 38x15.50 tires with a 306 turning them just fine. 456 gears did the trick there, so its something to consider

 

Broncobill78

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Well, yeah, proper gears are assumed. For those who haven't read thru the archives or asked here's the basic rule of thumb. 3.50's are fine with stock tires up to 31", 33" tires should use 4.11's, 35"/36" should be using 4.56, 38"/40" need 4.88 and 40"+ you need 5.12's. This info is available in previous posts and can be found with the search function since it's something that comes up 2 or 3 times a month.

 
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hockeyfreak55

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thanks guy, ya'll have been a big help. i pan on starting this project when i return from basic and ait. i leave in a few weeks......can i save this forum to my favorits or will it be deleted before i rturn in october? or should i copy and past this info?

 

Justshootme84

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Just save the forum in your favorites, and we'll be here when you get back. Good luck, JSM84

 

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