38 on stock axles

I have a 79 and i wanter to no how well the stock 9in and dana 44 axles handle 38's. Thanks

I ran that set up for a while. You will definately need chromoly axle shafts if you plan to wheel it.

Do you no who makes the axle shafts you are talking about?

clean 79 said:

I have a 79 and i wanter to no how well the stock 9in and dana 44 axles handle 38's. Thanks

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The short answer is NO & the longer answer is Maybe. The stock axles really won't handle anything much larger than a 36" tire unless ALL you're doing is driving around town looking Bada$$. Run 38's and get your rig airborne and you're just *asking* for trouble. The 9" and Dana44 are both semi-floating axles, meaning that the axle shaft not only has to deliver torque to the tires but it ALSO has to bear the weight of the vehicle. This is NOT a good design for large tires (and by large I mean anything more than 36") IF you run this combo off-road, trail-run with it of goof around in the mud then you can EXPEXT something to fail, usually either the axleshaft or if you're luckey just the wheel bearing. Either way, anything in the 37"-44" range should be run on Dana 60's. While you CAN upgrade the $hit out of both the 44 AND the 9" doing so will cost you big bux and in the end you'll *still* have something weaker than a D60.

While I agree it CAN be done, it makes no sense to do this. By the time you spend the $$$ on upgraded axleshafts, a pinion bearing support and a good axle truss (All THREE of which you'll need to beef up the exle enuf so that one of the other weaknesses doesn't cause it to break) you could have swapped in a boneyard D60 for HALF the cash. I just don't see it as a cost effective way to go.

Broncobill78 said:

The short answer is NO & the longer answer is Maybe. The stock axles really won't handle anything much larger than a 36" tire unless ALL you're doing is driving around town looking Bada$$. Run 38's and get your rig airborne and you're just *asking* for trouble. The 9" and Dana44 are both semi-floating axles, meaning that the axle shaft not only has to deliver torque to the tires but it ALSO has to bear the weight of the vehicle. This is NOT a good design for large tires (and by large I mean anything more than 36") IF you run this combo off-road, trail-run with it of goof around in the mud then you can EXPEXT something to fail, usually either the axleshaft or if you're luckey just the wheel bearing. Either way, anything in the 37"-44" range should be run on Dana 60's. While you CAN upgrade the $hit out of both the 44 AND the 9" doing so will cost you big bux and in the end you'll *still* have something weaker than a D60.

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I thought a Dana 44 was a full floater in a Ford. I thought there was no weight on the axles in the front. If you break one, just flip the hub and go home or 2 wheel it. There's full floater kits for the 9" out. Upgrade to stronger Dana 44 axles and stronger u joints. Dana 60's are not indestructible. Axles and U-joints are more expensive than Dana 44 hardware. Finding a donor Dana 60, rebuilding it and then installing it all factors into the cost.

I ran 38's with stock dana 44 and 9" on a 79 pickup and a 78 bronco. Didn't start breaking axles in the front till after sticking a trutrac in the front diff on the pickup. I broke more u-joints than axles. Never broke a 9" axle in the pickup even with a detroit locker in the rear. The bronco was open rear's and never broke. The engine took a dump before anything else on the drivetrain stopped. Both trucks saw alot of abuse. I snapped a 9" axle on the street in an early bronco with 31's. I wasn't even abusing the truck, metal does get fatigued over time.

Well, that's a reasonable question. I don't consider the 44's to be full-floaters because as I remember them and as I read the exploded view it sure LOOKS to me like the axleshafts are weight-bearing. The reason you're able to unlock the hub & drive home is because the knuckle is holding everything in place. For that matter you can snap a 9" shaft and drive it home because unline (ahem) Brand-X, Ford uses a bearing retainer and that usually keeps the wheel in place unless you happen to break the shaft in the couple of inches between the wheel & the retainer. Generally speaking it's the guys in the Blazer crowd who you see on the side of the road with 1 wheel sticking out 2ft from the truck.

While I agree that the D60's can in fact be broken ($hit bubba, I used to be 20, I know good & well that *anything* can be broken if you wail on it enough). If you choose to rebuild a donor D60 that's fine, but generally speaking the axles are pretty much the toughest, longest lasting parts of any vehicle. As long as the gears are in the right neighborhood most guys are content to toss on a set of brakes and slide the axle under the truck. *anything* can get expensive if you make it expensive, but I'm willing to bet that most guys here who have *actual* experience doing this have simply purchased the axle, cleaned it up and installed it. I can almost guarantee that given 4wks to look for one I can find an F250/350 with D60's for $500 or less. At $250 per axle that's reasonable cheap money in my book, but maybe some guys do it differently.

Sure, *I* ran 38's w/stock the stock 9" and D44 too. Lots of guys do and get away with it *for awhile*. That doesn't change the fact that anything more than a 36" tire is simply more than the axleshafts & bearings can take. The 9" is not some mythical axle that can run any tire and never break. The fact that they *don't* break more frequently is a testament to the design and modern materials, it *doesn't* mean you can run 38's and everything's cool. Anyone who runs something larger than a 36" and plays around off-road will eventually break their axle, simple as that. Some guys roll the dice 2 or 3 times before coming up craps, some guys only go out occasionally and are able to do it for years before it happens.

But hey, it's just my own opinion. Guys will run what they want to run. 38's, 42's, 49's, No problem. It's all good. Run whatever makes ya happy.

" I don't consider the 44's to be full-floaters because as I remember them and as I read the exploded view it sure LOOKS to me like the axleshafts are weight-bearing. The reason you're able to unlock the hub & drive home is because the knuckle is holding everything in place."

How is the axles weight bearing on a front Dana 44? Yes the weight is on the knuckle, not on the axles. The front rear doesn't even need axles to drive around. The weight of a front Dana 60 is on the knuckle as well.

Ahhh, I love it. Thanks man. All THREE of the kids brought home interm report cards this wkend and I *really* needed somethig to make me smile & chuckle. If there's one thing I can appreciate it's another pitbull. sink your teeth into a question & *don't* let go until you have an answer that satisfies you. My Man !!

To begin with I *never* said the weight was borne by the knuckle, that would be foolish, go back & reread my statement. what I *said* was that the reason the tire didn't slide off when the shaft broke was because the knuckle assembly held it in place. The 9" has a bearing retainer that keeps THAT axle from sliding out when it breaks too, but that doesn't make it a full-floater.

Ok, you asked so here it is, I had to dig thru the manuals and dust off the scanner but please allow me to show you the difference.

Take a look at the D44 and compare it to the D60, paying *particular* attention to differences in the spindle assembly. As a quick note in case you missed it, the D44 shown is the HD version with the 8-lug heavy-duty knuckle assembly and even *this one* looks pretty lame compared to the D60.

I'm not a flag-waving fanatic for the D60, it's just that I understand what the limitations of the D44 & 9" are. The fact of the matter is that a 36" tire is really the practical limit for a stock D44 or 9". While you CAN upgrade the axles to handle a heavier tire the $$$ spent often exceeds what a D60 swap will cost. Those are simply the facts, while you CAN upgrade the axles to handle hevier tires the cost will almost always exceed what a D60 swap would cost and even with the upgrades there's no guarantee. You're simply better off with larger, stouter parts that are less prone to breakage and can handle hevier loads. Just out of curiousity I called my local yard earlier today & they quoted me $175 apiece for a set of front & rear D60's (WITH 4.10's to boot). There's just no way you could ever upgrade the stock running gear to the same level for that kind of cash.

The point of attachment between the truck and the axle is the spring assembly, be it leafs or coils. From that point you have to visualize just how the weight rests upon the axles by looking at the way the spindles & bearings are placed.

I understand that Dana 60 are a lot stronger than the Dana 44. I understand that sure the axles in the Dana 44 cannot handle the stress from heavier tires. I know the Ford 9" is a semi-floater. Swapping a leaf sprung Dana 60 front rear onto coils is not an easy conversion for everyone.

I just didn't agree when you said "don't consider the 44's to be full-floaters because as I remember them and as I read the exploded view it sure LOOKS to me like the axleshafts are weight-bearing". When I responded about the knuckle comment I actually meant the weight of the wheel rested on the steering knuckle assembly. I didn't mean that you stated that information that particular way. Sorry about that. The spindles support the weight of the wheel. If an axle breaks on a Dana 44, Dana 60 front or rear the weight of the wheel still rests on the spindle therefore the the wheel doesn't walk out. Ripping off a spindle really sucks.

I just didn't agree when you said that the Dana 44's axle shafts are weight-bearing. Didn't mean you make you upset.

Not a problem. I meant it when I said that I can appreciate someone else latches on to an inconsistancy & doesn't let go until he has an answer that satisfies him. To be perfectly honest it's not something I have an outright answer for. To *me* the hallmark of a full floater has always been the ability to leave the tire one, remove the hub and pull the axleshaft. Unfortunately due to the necessary construction of the outer knuckle of *any* front axle it just isn't possible to do that because of the yoke for the U-joint. However, if you *look* at the D60 front and compare it to the D60 rear you see the same sort of "bolted on hub" arrangement. Yo can easily see where you can pull the hub and remove the shaft without disturbing the tire. IF the D60 front has this & the D44 doesn't then I consider that significant. If it weren't for the yoke you could pull the half-shaft right on thru the D60.

To be perfectly honest, while I've installed several D60's into various Bronco's & F-trucks I simply haven't wailed on one badly enuf to break it (and trust me, it hasn't been for a lack of trying). Call me lazy but all I've ever done was to confirm the gears & swap the thing in. I've never bothered to rebuild one or do anything to any of them other than to steam-clean & paint them. I'm sure if I'd broken one I could give you better info but I simply never found a bluff that was high enuf to reasonably launch the truck off of and that *still* managed to break the axle. I honestly DID pull a lot of alcohol-induced acrobatics and still never managed to break one. I *tried* man, I really did. Maybe we can get one of the kids here to try it. Kids are great, they still think they're indestructable, they'll try anything.

What vehical is best to get dana 60 out of for that swap

Well, are you looking for a front axle, rear axle or a matched set ? While it really doesn't matter *too* much on the one hand, on the other it's never a bad thing to have too much info and to know *exactly* what you're looking for and what's what when you look for axles. There are a number of different D60's out there, so let me begin by saying that while they are not all created equal they are ALL much stronger & stouter than the 9" or the D44. Not that either the 9" OR D44 are $hitty axles in ANY way, it's just that the tire size, driving habits & intended usage have a LOT to do with what axle is best for what you're doing.

Anyways, to get to your question, you can find D60's under F250's & F350's (front's & rear's) and you can also find nice D60's under E250's & E350's. E-series cube vans often have D70's (*always* grab one of those if you spot one). The D70's are in E/F-350's and setup w/4-pinion limited-slips. VERY tough axles. If you're looking for a matched set then you want an F-250 or F-350 (4x4 E's are hard to come by). The heavier the truck the stonger the axles will be so a 350 will be the *best* candidate but don't walk away from a set from a 250. IF you're just looking for a rear (and you can swap in a D60 rear and then add D44HD hardware to your front axle to make it an 8-lug that matches the rear. It won't be as strong as a D60 front but at least you'll be able to rotate tires and won't need front & rear tires & rims that are different).

For those interested in just a rear and who are interested in the specifics: The regular D60 2-pinion is used on F250's (4x4 & 4x2) with either standard or limited slip differential. The Dana 60-1 and Dana 70 are used in E-250's & E-350's. The D61-2 is used on F250 & f350's when equiped w/the 460 (the D61 is identical to the 60 except the axle housing is of a heavier design). The Model 70 is used in E/F-350's and is a 4-pinion, 2-piece differential case design used with limited-slip differentials. The Dana 44-3 *rear* axle is used on F100/150 trucks having two-piece drivelines (look for a divorced transfer case). The design is similar to a D60 but the housing is lighter and it's a semi-floater instead of a full-floater like the D60/61/70. There's also a Model 70 with a 2-pinion, one-piece differential case that's used on lighter duty applications (I guess this means NON HD F/E-350's).

Are you confused yet /emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" /> The simple answer is that if you want a matched pair (front & rear) look for an F350 first & then an F250. If you just want a rear then look for an E/F-350 and than an E/F-250. Any one of them will have what you want.

ok one thing about the upgrade to a dana 60 from a ford 9 is your gunna lose ground clearance with the differential case since it is larger plus its heaver so thats more to pull for your engine when your wheelin but many people have done it and the only difference on a dana 44 hd as found in 78-79 f250 is only diff from the knuckles out and on finding a dana 60 ford front i couldnt get a quote less that 1200 for a good one plus you would have to convert to leafs up front or take it to an axle shop and have it modified to put your coils on it but in the end to go full dana 60 all the way around is as much as a waste of money as buffing up a 9" and a dana 44 so its up to you i would just buff the 9" and dana 44 up to give you greater ground clearance and keep it lighter for your enigine to pull it all while wheeling.

gibs0n06 said:

ok one thing about the upgrade to a dana 60 from a ford 9 is your gunna lose ground clearance with the differential case since it is larger plus its heaver so thats more to pull for your engine when your wheelin but many people have done it and the only difference on a dana 44 hd as found in 78-79 f250 is only diff from the knuckles out and on finding a dana 60 ford front i couldnt get a quote less that 1200 for a good one plus you would have to convert to leafs up front or take it to an axle shop and have it modified to put your coils on it but in the end to go full dana 60 all the way around is as much as a waste of money as buffing up a 9" and a dana 44 so its up to you i would just buff the 9" and dana 44 up to give you greater ground clearance and keep it lighter for your enigine to pull it all while wheeling.

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Well, okay, I can get with the cost thing. For reasons I don't completely understand that seems to be *really* regional in nature, some places they're $300, others are $1200 and beyond that it varies from yard to yard. Sometimes you're better off getting one from someplace 6 states away and even w/shipping it's cheaper than something local. It's a kind of no-mans-land as far as price goes. It's quickly gotten to the point where a complete parts truck is often the best solution. Now to the clearance issue, again, I suppose I'd have to agree that you maybe lose an inch or so of clearance but truth be told *most* guys upgrading to D60's are ALSO running larger tires and I'd have to say that generally speaking the larger tire diameter offsets any loss of clearance that the larger differential case presents. As for converting to front leafs, well, that's just a bitch ain't it ? You have the choice of either converting the front frame to accept leafs OR swapping the C-bushing horns from D44 over to the D60. Neither option is cheap if you're writing checks to someone for the work. If you're able to do your own welding (and can do so *safely* ) then converting to leafs is probably easier, however keeping the coils is probably the way to go if that level of workmanship is within your capacity. Paying *anyone* to do a swap like this becomes prohibitively expensive REAL quick. either you can weld & fabricate this stuff on your own or you pay someone who CAN. Fabricating an entire front suspension is NOT something to do after 3 or 4 weeks of welding classes.

Just a note on the D61 it is not the same as the D60 . I had one from an 84 F250 and had the ring gear get chewed up . In thinking that it was a D60 I got new 4:10 gears and a power lock 4 pinion carrier with a master install kit while trying to set the gears there was a 1/4 to 3/8 gap between the ring and pinion no way it was going to work so did some research found out it was a D61 . Mine happened to have 4:10 gears and is a real bastard rear end it uses a D60 4:56 carrier with a special extra thick ring gear most of these axles were used for hauling trucks and had very high gear ratios to 2.75 . After talking to randy,s ring and pinion and 4 wheel drivetrain I decided that I had already bought the parts for the D60 and I had a couple housings so I just went that route and got away from the oddball rear end that parts were very expensive for . Also wierd about that D61 is the center section is not centered one axle was a couple inches longer than the other and the outer hub bearings were huge compared to the D60 . If it werent for the gear issue I think it would be a better rear than a D60 definately stronger /emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

Ahh, well as we all know, *I'm* certainly no oracle

MY mistake. Never having had one myself I was simply relying upon what the factory manual had to say on the subject.

Attached is the source of my misinformation. If you read the text under "Description" and look to the 4th paragraph I believe it states: "Model 61-2 is used on the F-250 and F-350 when these vehicles are equipped with the 7.5L (460 CID)-V8 engine. Model 61 uses Model 60 service procedures. Model 61 is BASICALLY the same as Model 60 except that the axle housing is of heavier design"

I would have looked for more specific info except that the factory manual doesn't HAVE a listing for the D61 or D70 (at least not in the 78', 87' & 88' manuals that I own) other than to note in the D60 section that they are essentially the same axles only heavier and the same service procedures are used.

As far as the center section NOT being centered, well, as hard as it is for me to understand just how *that* works out with most engines & transmissions being located on the centerline I'll simply take your word for it on that one. Now I *had* been referring to rear axles but an offset FRONT center section sure would make a lot of sense to me as far as different length axle-shafts went.

As always, Thanks for correcting me

Yeah it was wierd when I went to use the axle shafts because there the same 30 spline the one side stuck out around 2 inches ( maybe less ) from seating thought WTH so I went back and measured and one side is longer and the other is just a hiar shorter could use it in a pinch but I just went and got another set of 60 axle shafts and put them in I have a pile of axles here never get rid of the 3/4 ton stuff I have another 61 here that came out of an 85 F250 it has 3:30 gears I think thye were . Its pretty much useless not sure why Ive kept that one /emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

BLADE262US said:

Yeah it was wierd when I went to use the axle shafts because there the same 30 spline the one side stuck out around 2 inches ( maybe less ) from seating thought WTH so I went back and measured and one side is longer and the other is just a hiar shorter could use it in a pinch but I just went and got another set of 60 axle shafts and put them in I have a pile of axles here never get rid of the 3/4 ton stuff I have another 61 here that came out of an 85 F250 it has 3:30 gears I think thye were . Its pretty much useless not sure why Ive kept that one /emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

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Interesting. Now, not to $hit on the guys from Randy's but hey, with corporate turnover's being what the are, you honestly don't know if you're getting someone who's been there 6 months or 6 years when you call. It's not like the guy says anything other than "Welcome to Randy's, my name is Bob". If Randy answered every call it might be a different deal, eh ?

Now of course I feel obliged to mention that this should maybe be a thread all it's own since as far as *I* can see it really has nothing to do with the original question.

Now as far as the whole D61 deal goes as best I can find outside of legitimate Ford documentation the deal is that the pinion is offset by anywhere between "0.0404 and ".0440. Now being somewhat of a machinist that represents an awfully big difference to ME, but hey, what do *I* know /emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" /> The idea here is that the D61 uses thicker and therefore stronger ring gears. From the documentation I've found from Dana the D61 used anywhere from a 3.00 to a 4.56 ratio *stock* depending on the carrier that was used. If you want to use 4.10 or 4.56 gears you have to use a combination of the correct D60 gears, the correct carrier AND perhaps a spacer depending on what carrier you have. It's admittedly complicated but NOT impossible to unravel /emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

Having looked into the D61 issue this is the best info I could fine. The info from the Dana Corp seems to indicate that it's just a D60 with an offset pinion that allows it to tun thicker gears but if you have something else I'd love to see it.

Here's an upload of the Dana manual that gives ALL axles, part numbers and what cross-refrenceses with what. It's admittedly a large file but' hey' what else can ya do /emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" /> Dana is NOT a small company and the info is fairly wide-ranging. Info on ALL Dana axles will NOT be a small file /emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

Here are a few other D61 links that I found to be VERY informative:

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=133785

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=150065

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=213472

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=109740

IF of course anyone cares to ck them out.

For one reason or another it is perhaps difficult to ignore the fact that the guys posting in the attached links seem to be, for the most part anyways, machinist's who know what's what and how to properly measure something using a Grade A granite and a height gauge & micrometers AND the fact that they are unimpressed with what the guys at Randy's and DTS have to say. Now once again, turnovers can **** ya

Dana_axle_parts.pdf