Universal Joint / CV Joint Q

[famvburg]

It's me again. Still mostly a lurker til I need an answer. A little background to the Q. A couple of months ago I was real busy at work & dropped my '69 off at a local service station / shop that I deal with to change the rear U-joints for me, since I didn't have time. As it turned out, it was really just the ball & socket in the CV joint worn out. We talked about a couple of options, being converting it to a solid shaft, which I understand is pretty common, or get a new, late style (Spicer) shaft. Mine's got the Borg. Well, I could get the repair kit & U-joint for my Borg for just a little less than a whole new Spicer shaft. Meanwhile, the paint shop finally had an opening, so with the rear shaft out & the front shaft locked in, off to the paint shop we go. They got the new shaft, only to find out we need to change the ****** on the transfer case. A little money for a part, mo' money for the labor. OK, back up, let me do my own thinking again. I got the Bronc out of the paint shop a couple of weeks ago & decided to do MY original thought, just get the repair kit, which I did. This evening I didn't have to work late so I was going to put in the rear shaft. Here's the problem. The 'clamp' part of the CV joint & ****** on the transfer case seem too small for the U-joint caps. The caps fit perfectly in the yokes, a perfect, smooth press. I measured the new cups to the old & they are identical. The bolts are about 1" long & are nowhere near long enough now. I had some 1 1/4" bolts in the shop that I can draw the 2 parts up to within about 1/8" - 3/16". The ID of the 2 pieces are definitely smaller than the OD of the cups, but they used to fit together! The only manual I have covers all the Broncos, & none in a lot of detail, but IIRC, says torque to 17 ft/lbs. NO WAY! The front shaft U/CV joint is flush & flat & is supposed to be the same assembly as the rear. Since I didn't take it apart, I don't know if there was a gap there or not & the shop's closed at this hour. I can't imagine it not fitting flush like the front shaft. I really need 1 1/2" bolts to secure it, it looks like & surely I'd need some sort of spacer to transfer the stress loads properly. The rear ******, that uses the 2 U-bolts, went together with a perfect fit. The new parts are also identical in dimensions to the new parts as well. So, Oh Bronco Gurus, what the heck's going on here? Thanks!

 

[Bully Bob]

WOW..!!

Now that's a full description of a problem...!!! Good job.!

Are you sure the caps that rest in the yoke on the transf. case are pushed all the way on...? i.e. no air in them.

There's a small tab they have to fit inside of, to seat completly.

& YES---- the bolt on cap should seat all the way down & flush with the yoke.

Other than that....the wrong U-joint or the yoke doesn't match the shaft/CV joint...?

One or the other could be Borg W. or Spicer

Keep us posted..that is strange..!!!

B

P.S. If the snap rings are on the "outside"--- it's Spicer

 

[famvburg]

Yep, they're all the way down & inside the little tabs. After I posted the message, I went back to my shop & tinkered some more. I can draw the 2 parts together, but it takes a bit more than 17 ft/lbs. (Without a torque wrench, but I'm an airplane mechanic by trade so I have a certain feel for torque. You know what I mean.) just to get them as close as they'll go, which is about 1/8". All the new parts are identical to the parts that were removed. I put in 1 1/2" bolts which gives the full thread depth which made me feel better. The U-joint caps are seated fully in both halves, but I sandwiched two 1/16" washers (for a 1/8" thickness) between the 2 halves at each of the 4 bolts to act as shims/spacers & everything 'looks' fine. My shaft is definitely the Borg, the snap rings are on the inside. I ordered the newer Spicer, which is still on my bench. That CV joint half does the same thing! Even with the Spicer-supplied U-joint cap! Now, when I said I had to use a longer bolt to draw the halves together, the gap started out about 3/8", with the 2 pieces closing the gap as I tightened, pulling the caps in to the halves, but the gap only got down to 1/8" before I felt I was either going to strip something or break something. The U-joint is now fully seated in the ******, the halves are square & shimmed with the washers, so I guess I'll give it a drive today. Considering there are just 5/16" U-bolts on the rear end, surely this'll work as well since everything's tight, flush & square. I guess it's pretty bad when Bully Bob is baffled! Thanks. Maybe I'll take some pics of the situation later today. And the new paint job!

WOW..!!Now that's a full description of a problem...!!! Good job.!

Are you sure the caps that rest in the yoke on the transf. case are pushed all the way on...? i.e. no air in them.

There's a small tab they have to fit inside of, to seat completly.

& YES---- the bolt on cap should seat all the way down & flush with the yoke.

Other than that....the wrong U-joint or the yoke doesn't match the shaft/CV joint...?

One or the other could be Borg W. or Spicer

Keep us posted..that is strange..!!!

B

P.S. If the snap rings are on the "outside"--- it's Spicer

 

[Bully Bob]

YES.. let's see some pics..!

& yes., this is a wonderment....! /emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

One other thought ...I would be curious to see if the front shaft & joint would fit right into place & cinch down.

Lastly.., what brand of U-joints..? & I'm guessing you mic'd the joint caps..?

P.S.

"a couple of options, 1 being converting it to a solid shaft, which I understand is pretty common"

This is NOT a good idea.., on many levels.

 

[famvburg]

I don't recall the brand right off. The kit came from Jeff's Bronco Graveyard. Obviously, no idea what the removed brand is. Might be Ford original for all I know. I didn't mic them, just measured with calipers. Like I said, they fit the yokes perfectly, both the CV/U-joint & the differential ****** U-joint. I thought about that, but there's no slack in any of the front joints, so if it ain't broke, don't break it! /emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

YES.. let's see some pics..!& yes., this is a wonderment....! /emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

One other thought ...I would be curious to see if the front shaft & joint would fit right into place & cinch down.

Lastly.., what brand of U-joints..? & I'm guessing you mic'd the joint caps..?

 

[Bully Bob]

R&R'ing the front shaft won't hurt a thing....

If "it" will slide 100% into place on the rear yoke then, there's a prob. with the new rear joints.

If it "won't" then in the past, the rear yoke was changed for some reason.

At least, you'll have a starting point as to the problem...

P.S.

Another thought....,

-----Some U-joints are "offset" ....they didn't, per chance, send you that style..?

 

[famvburg]

If it "won't" then in the past, the rear yoke was changed for some reason.

At least, you'll have a starting point as to the problem...

See, that's the confusing part. All of the old parts are identical in size & shape to the new parts, except the Spicer stuff I ordered of course. The old CV joint piece is identical to the new one & the old U joints & cups are identical to the new ones. So, if it was changed, why do the old & the new match? Something is amiss for sure. I'll try to break the front CV/U joint less tonight & see what it does, but that still doesn't explain why the old match the new. I'll try the pics later as well. Without my checking the forum rules, is there a limit to the pics posted at one time in one post?

R&R'ing the front shaft won't hurt a thing....If "it" will slide 100% into place on the rear yoke then, there's a prob. with the new rear joints.

If it "won't" then in the past, the rear yoke was changed for some reason.

At least, you'll have a starting point as to the problem...

P.S.

Another thought....,

-----Some U-joints are "offset" ....they didn't, per chance, send you that style..?

 

[Bully Bob]

In '69 the EB came with "Borg warner"

Borg Warner (or Clevland) were no longer used from 1970 thru 1977

Your rig is a '69

If your rear shaft set-up is in fact.., Borg W., then it is stock.

Edit note..! I corrected this statement as I made a couple mistakes initially...sorry..!

 

[famvburg]

Well, even tho the paperwork says it's a'69, I've joked that it's a'68 1/2, as it had vac wipers & I understood '69s had elec. Mine are electric now. I think I found some other '68 items as well, but can't recall. Somewhere I think I read that they didn't switch to Spicer til about '71 or '72. However, I sneaked off to the shop, my main job is pretty dead right now, so I could take pics. Well, eureka! oh, joy! hot dawg! I made a breakthrough, tho it still maybe doesn't explain everything. While grabbing parts & pieces to compare in the pics, 2 parts that I don't have from the shop that removed the shaft are the 2 caps that clamp between the CV joint & ******. That's all the shop did was pull the shaft & found the CV joint worn. Here's what I found. The Borg caps are about 1" OD. The Spicer caps are about 7/8" OD. That's with a tape & not calipers, but you get the point. The Spicer caps are a perfect fit inside the Borg CV joint & ******, on my Bronc. Now, here's the confusion. The other Borg/Spicer issue is the bolt patterns are different & according to my U joints, it's all Borg. When I made this cross-bred discovery, I checked the Spicer U joints with the Borg caps & the caps themselves interchange, so at this stage, my answer to this dilemma is to use the Spicer caps at the transfer case. Now, Bully Bob, since the bolt patterns between the 2 shafts are different & therefore won't interchange directly, what do you suppose is going on here? Tonight my plan is to remove the washers & long bolts & Borg cups & swap them out for the 2 Spicer cups & original bolts & all should be well. I will loosen the front shaft & measure the caps & see what size(s) are where. Thanks for all your help & persistance. Since I've figured out something, I won't bore y'all with pics of all the mess, but I will post some pics of the bronc with its new paint!

In '69 the EB came with "SPICER"Borg Warner (or Clevland) were no longer used.

Your rig is a '69

If your rear shaft set-up is in fact.., Borg W., then it appears it's been swapped in at some point.

The front shaft/CVJ should be a spicer as well.

If the front has snap-rings on the outside..., & it fits flush on the rear T-case yoke., then that's a spicer yoke.

Maybe the old matches the new .... as the wrong parts were on there B/4 you even started..?

 

[Bully Bob]

At this point.., it doesn't sound like "hope & change"

I've so heard enough of that....!!!! :lol: :lol: :lol: B)

Sounds like case closed..!!..?

P.S. The EB catalogs say '69/last yr. for Borg Warner shafts & U-joints.

 

[famvburg]

I just thunk of a nitpicking clarification question. When we say the snap rings are on the outside, do we mean external snap rings on the outside of the U-joint cup, but inside the yokes? Or do we mean the outside of the yokes but internal snap rings outside in the hole in the yokes? The Spicer that I bought has internal snap rings that you can see from the outside of the yokes. The shaft that I have installed has the snap rings on the outside of the cups, on the inside of the yokes, that you can't see from outside of the yokes? Both installed shafts have the ends of the cups flush with the outer edges of the yokes, no snap ring can be seen on the outer edge. If it's a Spicer yoke, did they ever make a yoke with the Borg bolt pattern? This is just curious stuff now as no matter what, I've conjured up a fix. I think. /emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" />

In '69 the EB came with "SPICER"Borg Warner (or Clevland) were no longer used.

Your rig is a '69

If your rear shaft set-up is in fact.., Borg W., then it appears it's been swapped in at some point.

The front shaft/CVJ should be a spicer as well.

If the front has snap-rings on the outside..., & it fits flush on the rear T-case yoke., then that's a spicer yoke.

Maybe the old matches the new .... as the wrong parts were on there B/4 you even started..?

 

[Bully Bob]

"When we say the snap rings are on the outside, do we mean external snap rings on the outside of the U-joint cup.?"

----YES----

The junction at the T-case, there's 8 cups.... 6 are held in place with instantly visable clips shaped somewhat like an "M" or "W" ........the two that rest in the T-case yoke have no clips.

---this would be "Spicer"----

"If it's a Spicer yoke, did they ever make a yoke with the Borg bolt pattern?"

---I doubt it but don't quote me....!! ----

 

[famvburg]

OK, the verdict's in. After removing the CV/U joint & making up a new spider, using 2 existing 1" cups & 2 new 7/8" cups for the Spicer, the thing popped right into place & the correct bolts worked just fine. I measured the front shaft CV/U joint & it too uses 1" cups in all the U joints, except, like the rear shaft, uses two 7/8" cups in the CV joint at the transfer case. And yep, too, Bully Bob, it IS a Borg, with all U joints having the snap (shaped like a C) rings inside the yoke, not readily visible. After going thru this, I remembered back in the '80s. my late dad owned some Mack trucks & IIRC, we were always having to make 'custom' U joints for them, we'd buy 2 with different sized cups & swap 2 for 2 as the rear end yokes took different sizes from the shafts. Anyway, mystery solved, I guess I have the elusive Borg-Spicer shaft or maybe it's the Dana-Warner. /emoticons/[email protected] 2x" width="20" height="20" /> I may have found it without your help anyway, but maybe not as quickly. Thanks again for your advice & patience!

"When we say the snap rings are on the outside, do we mean external snap rings on the outside of the U-joint cup.?"----YES----

The junction at the T-case, there's 8 cups.... 6 are held in place with instantly visable clips shaped somewhat like an "M" or "W" ........the two that rest in the T-case yoke have no clips.

---this would be "Spicer"----

"If it's a Spicer yoke, did they ever make a yoke with the Borg bolt pattern?"

---I doubt it but don't quote me....!! ----

 

[Bully Bob]

Upon review of the above..., I had to change/edit a few of my points/dates, etc. (for those who are following this)

At the end of the day., there's something strange fr. the beginning here.

I would suspect the yoke(s) were swapped at some point in time.

----Should anyone else run into this.....be sure to post it... >

Be interesting to know if Ford did this for some unknown reason.

----Glad you're back on the road....!!!!

 

[famvburg]

The only thing about the simple version of the yokes having been swapped is, swapped to what? The Spicer uses 7/8" OD cups while the Borg, (mine) uses 1" cups except at the transfer case ******, which use the 7/8" OD cups but the bolt patterns on the Spicer & Borg flanges are different. Not even close to blt up to one another. The Spicer shaft assy I have won't bolt up to my transfer case ******, tho its U joint cups fit. Now, I'm basing all of my Spicer knowledge on the sole shaft assy & transfer case ****** I have from Jeff's Bronco Graveyard. I'm also basing my Borg knowledge solely on my shaft assy as well & what I've read online about both. Also, a couple of years ago, I had bought a set of U joints for my Bronc, preparing to do this at some point, not even knowing about the CV joint. I just went in & told the NAPA store I needed U joints for the rear drive shaft for a '69 Bronco. They, too, have been sitting in a cabinet, as I got everything at one time this time from Jeff's. The ones from NAPA are for a Spicer! 7/8" cups & internal snap rings for the outside of the yokes. The biggest confusion I have is the fact that the Spicer & Borg bolt patterns are entirely incompatible. Like Willie & Bully both say, I'm 'on the road again'.

Upon review of the above..., I had to change/edit a few of my points/dates, etc. (for those who are following this)At the end of the day., there's something strange fr. the beginning here.

I would suspect the yoke(s) were swapped at some point in time.

----Should anyone else run into this.....be sure to post it... >

Be interesting to know if Ford did this for some unknown reason.

----Glad you're back on the road....!!!!