Starter shims ??

[Broncobill78]

Ok, I'm still messing around with the starter/ring-gear issue. To recap briefly, the thing won't start without manually spinning the engine repeatedly until a "good spot" is found and it fires. The starter gear isn't engaging the ring-gear. The starter wasn't loose when I took it out but the teeth were pretty badly deformed and that raised ring around the lip that locates it in the bellhousing has close to 90* broken off of it. Even with a big chunk of the locating ring gone the starter seemed to locate well & the bolts also provided positive location so I don't think it was shifting under torque. What I'm wanting to know is if there's supposed to be some sort of factory shim here that is missing. It's an 88' w/a 302 & AOD. The thin sheet metal plate between the block & bellhousing is there (although the inspection plate for it is long gone) and to be frank the only other times I've gotten involved this deeply was doing the Frame-off's on a pair of 78's. I've never seen a starter shim other than that scatter-shield type thing between the block & bellhousing. Is there one missing or is there some other way of locating or clocking the starter that I'm unaware of ?

The ring-gear itself shows some definate damage but nothing that looks catastrophic. I'm hoping that the teeth on a new starter will be good enough to engage the moderately damaged teeth on the flywheel. I just finished doing some Dremel surgury on the starter teeth hoping that maybe taking off the mushroom on the leading edge will allow it to engage (because right now 1) I have more time than money, 2) Junkyards are closed today & 3) The Patriots made it look easy by spanking the Dolphins so I'm in a good enough mood to waste time on a project like this).

Before I reinstall the original starter (just for kicks since I have time on my hands until the yards open tomorrow) or for that matter go & install a replacement starter I really need to figure out *WHY* the teeth aren't engaging. I've never seen a starter shim before but then I've never owned an 88' either. If there's anyone who can shed some light on the issue I sure would appreciate it.

 

[Justshootme84]

A starter shim is a thin washer you place between the starter and the engine block, on one or both of the bolts that hold the starter. This will slightly change the position of the starter in relation to the ring gear when the two starter bolts are tightened down. You could try the dye/marking compound used for gear swaps to check the engagement of the starter gear teeth on the ring gear teeth. But usually, one shim on one of the starter bolts will help. Run the bolt thru the starter mounting hole, then insert the shim, then thread the bolt into the engine block. Many of the starters you buy are reman. units and have rather loose tolerances. I try to have it bench tested at the parts store before I buy one, to be sure the thing works right. JSM84

 

[mbtech2003]

what about the wrong starter??? manual and auto flywheels have different number of teeth meaning u need a different starter for each. other wise you will have to pull the trans and replace the flexplate between the torque converter and the crankshaft >-

 

[Broncobill78]

Trust me, Unfortunately I know good & well what changing the ring-gear w/an automatic involves and quite frankly I want nothing to do with it.

Here's where I'm at. The starter I have is pretty chewed up at this point. It may or may not have been the correct starter but I have to think that the wrong starter would have caused problems from the beginning and any pinhead would have recognized that & changed it. Part of my problem (a big part actually) is that the previous owner seems to have been manic and vehicle maintenance just wasn't high on his list. I picked up the truck for next to nothing because this clown is serving time for attempted ****** after taking a number of shots at his wife from *inside* the cab (there are powder burns around the hole in the windshield, I can post photos) so I'm thinking that running the correct starter wasn't a big priority for him.

My problem is that I'm at where I'm at. I've never seen a factory starter shim and don't think they ever used them. Maybe shimming this one will help but the teeth are pretty bad and smoothing them out w/a dremel didn't do Jack. I'll try swapping it out with a different starter but if that doesn't work I think I'm going to be stuck with changing the flywheel and I don't think there's *anyone* who looks forward to doing that job. What I was hoping to hear was that for some arcane reason Ford used some kind of shim on these trucks and fabricating a replacement would fix my problem, but apparently the starter fairy is on vacation.

As JSM84 suggested I could easily use some washers to shim one or both sides of the starter and I may well try that but I'm a little reluctant. Right now the ring gear doesn't look *too* chewed up and my hope is that a different starter will make a difference. What I'm afraid of is that if I keep grinding away with this one I'll push the ring-gear to the point where it *does* have to be replaced and then I'm stuck dropping the transmission & we all know that isn't on ANYONE's christmas list. Clearly there's no way to move the teeth any further inwards to engage any better so the only thing I can do is shim them outwards and hope that fixes the problem. I'll probably give that a quick whirl in the next day or two but if it doesn't work I think I'm just going to lay it all aside until I drag home a parts truck.

This probably deserves a different thread but it's late & I'm on a roll. I'm going tomorrow to look at a 91 F150 4x4 for parts. Can anyone tell me 1) what's involved in pulling a windshield and 2) what the 91 F150's ran for an auto tranny. I have a 302 & AOD in my Bronco and I'd like like to swap in the 351 from the F150 but it's easiest to do it as a whole engine/tranny/Xfer case unit but what I'm afraid of is that the newer truck will have a E4OD which may or may not be longer or shorter than my AOD. I'd love to swap out the powertrain as a unit and be done with it but I somehow get the feeling that if I do I'll be looking at a pair of custom driveshafts. Sorry to ask so many newbie questions but everything I've built from the frame up has been 73-79 and I'm just lost with the TTB trucks.

what about the wrong starter??? manual and auto flywheels have different number of teeth meaning u need a different starter for each. other wise you will have to pull the trans and replace the flexplate between the torque converter and the crankshaft >-

 

[miesk5]

to add to what our pal JSM wrote;

"Why does the starter cut the tips off the starter pinion after a few months?

If the starter pinion is being damaged in this way, the gear meash is too sloppy. The pinion needs to be closer to the ring gear. If there are no shims installed, then material needs to be machined off of the mounting surface of the starter. Optionally, shim the outboard starter mounting bolt only. This will roll the starter towrd the ring gear, tightening its engagement.

Another possiblity is that the ring gear itself could be out of round, egg-shaped. This is especially possible with new, inexpensive ring gears. Check the pinion to ring gear engagement dimensions in at least six places 60 degrees apart on the flex plate."

 

[Broncobill78]

to add to what our pal JSM wrote;"Why does the starter cut the tips off the starter pinion after a few months?

If the starter pinion is being damaged in this way, the gear meash is too sloppy. The pinion needs to be closer to the ring gear. If there are no shims installed, then material needs to be machined off of the mounting surface of the starter. Optionally, shim the outboard starter mounting bolt only. This will roll the starter towrd the ring gear, tightening its engagement.

Another possiblity is that the ring gear itself could be out of round, egg-shaped. This is especially possible with new, inexpensive ring gears. Check the pinion to ring gear engagement dimensions in at least six places 60 degrees apart on the flex plate."

This is closer to what I've been thinking. I agree that the gear engagement is probably sloppy and that's what started the problem, now however, I've probably lost a good 1/8" to 1/4" off the front of the teeth. Cleaning them up w/the dremel removed the mushroom on the front and may or may not help them engage but I'm pretty sure that shimming the thing *further* out from the ring-gear won't net me any improvement. If I had a large enough mill I certainly could mill down the case a bit to shift the pinion in further but that just seems so extreme. Now I don't know if the starter mountings vary any but on my 78/79's and early 80's trucks all I've ever seen on a V8/Auto combination has been upper & lower mounting points for the starter (upper is 1/2" & lower is 9/16" as I remember, or maybe I have it backwards. Always wondered why they did that, really seems more like something Mopar would have done) So I could tilt the pinion up or down with shims but not side to side.

I suppose an out-of-round ring-gear could be at fault but looking at this thing I don't think anyone's ever split the motor & trans and being an 88' I'm pretty sure it's the original ring-gear. My biggest concern is that I'm looking at a new ring-gear to repair this. I haven't priced them from Ford yet but I don't think NAPA is going to be carrying this one & I don't know that a junkyard will be willing to sell the flywheel off an engine they've pulled (assuming they have an appropriate engine handy) and I think the'll be even less willing to break into something in the yard just for a flywheel. It's just one of those jobs nobody wants to do. I'm starting to consider a parts truck at this point just to have easy access to the things I'll need.

 

[miesk5]

ok; hope it's not the fw too; if it turns out to be...and no yards will sell you one; try e bay

Been awhile since I looked at the fw w/ starter removed; & I am getting my engine memory fried as well; any chance of getting a dial ind. in there?

 

[STLKIKN]

Any chance that its just a sticky Bendix drive in the starter??

If the pinion teeth (Bendix) isn't coming out of the starter housing far enough, it could cause the same type of problem you are describing.... try a different starter.

 

[Broncobill78]

Any chance that its just a sticky Bendix drive in the starter??If the pinion teeth (Bendix) isn't coming out of the starter housing far enough, it could cause the same type of problem you are describing.... try a different starter.

Oh, wow Chief. I completely blanked on that possibility but now that you mention it I'm giving it a lot of consideration. In addition to grinding almost every time it tries to engage, every 6th or 7th time I try it just whirls. Doesn't grind, just whirls and now that you say this it would make a lot of sense for the throw-out to not be throwing out and the pinion just isn't engaging fully which is causing the grinding AND mushroom effect that I'm seeing on the pinion gears and a sticky bendex would also explain the occasional whirl when it simply doesn't engage at all..

Hmmm, well I'm set to hit a boneyard tomorrow AND look at a parts truck so hopefully either way I'll have access to a replacement starter and be cool.

$hit man, Thanks for something I blanked on completely.

 

[Justshootme84]

If your Bronco was a mid-80's, I'd say just get another starter, since they only run about $30. But Ithink the 88 302 model is about $80-$100. I would suggest pulling the starter and taking it to the local parts store to bench test it. Find someone who knows what they're doing, and check that it works properly. Chances are that it's hanging up like stated and needs to be replaced. Most starters are rebuilt like alternators, and you may go through 2 or 3 before finding one that works right for you. BE sure you get a warranty, too. LAstly, check that the starter is getting proper voltage, and none of the cables are corroded or dirty. JSM84

 

[andre]

here my 2 cents worth

get new starter try it out if noise still there. stop before u scrap the stater

count the teeth on stater make sure it 4 auto

had one guy bring truck in shop ad put standart starter in auto

and shim tranny bolt on engine block w washer

flywheel and starter was done

all of that 4 bozo that put flywheel crank whasher be

fore the flyweel

 

[Broncobill78]

here my 2 cents worthget new starter try it out if noise still there. stop before u scrap the stater

count the teeth on stater make sure it 4 auto

had one guy bring truck in shop ad put standart starter in auto

and shim tranny bolt on engine block w washer

flywheel and starter was done

all of that 4 bozo that put flywheel crank whasher be

fore the flyweel

Thanks, that's a good point, but how many teeth should the auto starter have & how many should the manual starter have ? Anyone know ?

 

[miesk5]

Thanks, that's a good point, but how many teeth should the auto starter have & how many should the manual starter have ? Anyone know ?

Starter, Ford Manual Transmission; The locating circle on the face of a Ford starter is made to different dimensions for manual and automatic transmissions. This keeps a person from mixing the two starters up since they look similar. If the starter does not fit in the hole in the intermediate plate, this indicates that a person either has the wrong starter or the wrong intermediate plate. Do not enlarge this hole or grind on the starter to make it fit, instead change the incompatible part. by powermastermotorsports

EDIT: I believe both are 9 tooth;

http://www.wai-wetherill.com/products/part...m?wai_num=4-352

see this site http://www.wai-wetherill.com/products/ymm.cfm aovrnd verify all of da above

Buyers Guide show all the Fords this unit applies to...MANY!

btw, later pgmg units have 10 teeth

btw, here is the Ford MC pn SA734BRM - about $60.00 from Rock Auto w/core but local yards are best. of course

Remanufactured Starter

REMAN STARTER ELIGIBLE FOR BUMPER TO BUMPER MOTORCRAFT WARRANTIES

w/AUTO TRANS

Buyers Guide show all the Fords this unit applies to...MANY! - so a yard should have a bunch for you

http://www.motorcraft.com/catalog.do?goto=fullline

83-83 FORD FAIRMONT 6-200 3.3L 1

1 83-83 FORD MIDSIZE LTD 6-200 3.3L 1

2 82-82 FORD All Models V6-232 3.8L 1

3 84-84 FORD All Models V6-232 3.8L 1

6 85-86 FORD All Models V6-232 3.8L 1

1 87-87 FORD All Models V6-232 3.8L 1

1 83-83 FORD MUSTANG V6-232 3.8L 1

1 88-88 FORD THUNDERBIRD V6-232 3.8L 1

1 89-89 FORD THUNDERBIRD V6-232 3.8L 1

1 90-90 FORD THUNDERBIRD V6-232 3.8L 1

1 83-83 FORD MIDSIZE LTD V6-232 3.8L 1

3 80-82 FORD MUSTANG V8-255 4.2L 1

3 80-82 FORD THUNDERBIRD V8-255 4.2L 1

7 83-84 FORD All Models V8-302 5.0L 1

4 85-85 FORD All Models V8-302 5.0L 1

10 87-90 FORD All Models V8-302 5.0L 1

1 82-82 FORD MUSTANG V8-302 5.0L 1

1 91-91 FORD MUSTANG V8-302 5.0L 1

1 83-83 FORD All Models V8-351 5.8L 1

1 84-84 FORD All Models V8-351 5.8L 1

1 85-85 FORD All Models V8-351 5.8L 1

1 87-87 FORD All Models V8-351 5.8L 1

1 82-82 LINCOLN All Models V6-232 3.8L 1

6 77-80 LINCOLN All Models V8-302 5.0L 1

6 82-83 LINCOLN All Models V8-302 5.0L 1

3 84-84 LINCOLN All Models V8-302 5.0L 1

2 88-88 LINCOLN All Models V8-302 5.0L 1

2 89-89 LINCOLN All Models V8-302 5.0L 1

3 85-87 LINCOLN CONTINENTAL V8-302 5.0L 1

3 85-87 LINCOLN MARK SERIES V8-302 5.0L 1

3 85-87 LINCOLN TOWN CAR V8-302 5.0L 1

1 77-77 LINCOLN All Models V8-351 5.8L 1

2 80-80 LINCOLN All Models V8-351 5.8L 1

1 83-83 MERCURY ZEPHYR 6-200 3.3L 1

1 83-83 MERCURY MIDSIZE MARQUIS 6-200 3.3L 1

1 82-82 MERCURY All Models V6-232 3.8L 1

12 83-86 MERCURY All Models V6-232 3.8L 1

1 87-87 MERCURY All Models V6-232 3.8L 1

3 88-90 MERCURY COUGAR V6-232 3.8L 1

9 75-80 MERCURY All Models 6-250 4.1L 1

3 80-82 MERCURY COUGAR V8-255 4.2L 1

3 83-83 MERCURY All Models V8-302 5.0L 1

4 85-85 MERCURY All Models V8-302 5.0L 1

8 86-89 MERCURY All Models V8-302 5.0L 1

1 90-90 MERCURY All Models V8-302 5.0L 1

1 84-84 MERCURY FULL SIZE MERCURY V8-302 5.0L 1

1 84-84 MERCURY CAPRI V8-302 5.0L 1

1 84-84 MERCURY COUGAR V8-302 5.0L 1

1 82-82 FORD TRUCK All Models V6-232 3.8L 1

1 83-83 FORD TRUCK All Models V6-232 3.8L 1

8 83-90 FORD TRUCK BRONCO FULL SIZE 6-300 4.9L 1

1 91-91 FORD TRUCK BRONCO FULL SIZE 6-300 4.9L 1

1 83-83 FORD TRUCK E 100-350 VANS 6-300 4.9L 1

5 83-87 FORD TRUCK E 100-350 VANS 6-300 4.9L 1

5 83-87 FORD TRUCK E 100-350 VANS 6-300 4.9L 1

6 84-89 FORD TRUCK E 100-350 VANS 6-300 4.9L 1

1 88-88 FORD TRUCK E 100-350 VANS 6-300 4.9L 1

1 88-88 FORD TRUCK E 100-350 VANS 6-300 4.9L 1

1 89-89 FORD TRUCK E 100-350 VANS 6-300 4.9L 1

1 89-89 FORD TRUCK E 100-350 VANS 6-300 4.9L 1

1 90-90 FORD TRUCK E 100-350 VANS 6-300 4.9L 1

1 91-91 FORD TRUCK E 100-350 VANS 6-300 4.9L 1

8 83-90 FORD TRUCK F 100-350 P/U 6-300 4.9L 1

1 91-91 FORD TRUCK F 100-350 P/U 6-300 4.9L 1

8 83-90 FORD TRUCK BRONCO FULL SIZE V8-302 5.0L 1

1 91-91 FORD TRUCK BRONCO FULL SIZE V8-302 5.0L 1

1 83-83 FORD TRUCK E 100-350 VANS V8-302 5.0L 1

7 83-89 FORD TRUCK E 100-350 VANS V8-302 5.0L 1

6 84-89 FORD TRUCK E 100-350 VANS V8-302 5.0L 1

1 90-90 FORD TRUCK E 100-350 VANS V8-302 5.0L 1

1 91-91 FORD TRUCK E 100-350 VANS V8-302 5.0L 1

8 83-90 FORD TRUCK F 100-350 P/U V8-302 5.0L 1

1 91-91 FORD TRUCK F 100-350 P/U V8-302 5.0L 1

7 83-89 FORD TRUCK BRONCO FULL SIZE V8-351 5.8L 1

1 83-83 FORD TRUCK E 100-350 VANS V8-351 5.8L 1

1 83-83 FORD TRUCK E 100-350 VANS V8-351 5.8L 1

1 83-83 FORD TRUCK E 100-350 VANS V8-351 5.8L 1

1 84-84 FORD TRUCK E 100-350 VANS V8-351 5.8L 1

2 84-85 FORD TRUCK E 100-350 VANS V8-351 5.8L 1

2 84-85 FORD TRUCK E 100-350 VANS V8-351 5.8L 1

2 84-85 FORD TRUCK E 100-350 VANS V8-351 5.8L 1

2 84-85 FORD TRUCK E 100-350 VANS V8-351 5.8L 1

1 85-85 FORD TRUCK E 100-350 VANS V8-351 5.8L 1

1 85-85 FORD TRUCK E 100-350 VANS V8-351 5.8L 1

4 86-89 FORD TRUCK E 100-350 VANS V8-351 5.8L 1

4 86-89 FORD TRUCK E 100-350 VANS V8-351 5.8L 1

4 86-89 FORD TRUCK E 100-350 VANS V8-351 5.8L 1

1 83-83 FORD TRUCK F 100-350 P/U V8-351 5.8L 1

1 84-84 FORD TRUCK F 100-350 P/U V8-351 5.8L 1

1 84-84 FORD TRUCK F 100-350 P/U V8-351 5.8L 1

1 84-84 FORD TRUCK F 100-350 P/U V8-351 5.8L 1

1 84-84 FORD TRUCK F 100-350 P/U V8-351 5.8L 1

1 84-84 FORD TRUCK F 100-350 P/U V8-351 5.8L 1

4 85-88 FORD TRUCK F 100-350 P/U V8-351 5.8L 1

1 89-89 FORD TRUCK F 100-350 P/U V8-351 5.8L 1

 

[Broncobill78]

Starter, Ford Manual Transmission; The locating circle on the face of a Ford starter is made to different dimensions for manual and automatic transmissions. This keeps a person from mixing the two starters up since they look similar. If the starter does not fit in the hole in the intermediate plate, this indicates that a person either has the wrong starter or the wrong intermediate plate. Do not enlarge this hole or grind on the starter to make it fit, instead change the incompatible part. by powermastermotorsports

EDIT: I believe both are 9 tooth;

http://www.wai-wetherill.com/products/part...m?wai_num=4-352

see this site http://www.wai-wetherill.com/products/ymm.cfm aovrnd verify all of da above

Buyers Guide show all the Fords this unit applies to...MANY!

btw, later pgmg units have 10 teeth

btw, here is the Ford MC pn SA734BRM - about $60.00 from Rock Auto w/core but local yards are best. of course

Remanufactured Starter

Wow, too cool. Thanks.

I finally just bit the bullet & picked up a rebuilt w/a lifetime warranty (they'll regret giving me that warranty, just wait & see)

I got it in there and it does spin & start the engine but I can still hear that it isn't meshing as well as it should, no real questtion about it now the flywheel is damaged. I'm hoping that some time with this starter will smooth out the ring-gear teeth but I anticipate having to change out THIS starter after some time as well.

It's kinda a moot point, I got it running and after tooling around with it for a bit the tranny pretty much up & died (3000 rpm @ 12 mph). It was dark & raining like a monsoon when I finally got it home so I haven't gone out to look at anything but right now I'm looking at transmission jacks & figuring it's going to have to come out. While I've got it out I guess I'll throw on a new flywheel. I just *knew* when the clown I bought it from started telling me I'd need to change the tranny filter that he was really telling me the freaking thing was dead & needed rebuilding.

What's the easiest way to pull this thing ? I figured to drop it with the Xfer case and split them when I had both on the ground or is there a better/easier way ?

 

[Justshootme84]

It's much easier and only a bit more work to drop the t-case first, then the tranny. The B-W 13-56 t-case weighs in about 74 pounds, so you can almost remove it without a jack. But it's bettr to use a tranny jack, since you made need some leverage to separate it from the tranny. I also found it alot easier to remove the exhaust, or at least loosen the y-pipe from the manifolds/headers. You ca nrent a tranny jack for about $35-$40 from most rental stores. JSM84