No tach input pressure spout???

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BroncoStar

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Hello all! I had a Level II Diagnostic done on my 93 Bronco (Eddie Bauer 5.8 litre with 140,000 miles on it and recently rebuilt transmission and torque converter, fuel pump and sending unit replaced) and one of the items listed as being a problem is "no tach input pressure spout" has anyone ever heard of this? The truck has been experiencing a rough idle and no get up and go. I recently replaced the MAP (after moving from near sea level to Denver) and it's running better and showing more power, but the occasional "missing" is still happening. I'm at my wits end with this Bronco........so much so, that I'm about to get rid of it, but hate to do so. Please give me any ideas that you may have concerning this issue........

 
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miesk5

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yo B,

Ask shop what the 3 digit EEC IV Self-Test code(s) was;

or do a self Test for Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTC)s by my pal, BroncoJoe19

http://broncozone.com/topic/14269-code-reader/?pid=74587&mode=threaded

Some possible Codes;

212

Loss of IDM input to EEC or SPOUT circuit grounded. Ignition module circuit failure-SPOUT circuit grounded; Check to see if the spout connector is good by inserting a piece of wire where the connector is . If that doesn't help any try checking the wiring all the way until it goes into the connector.

Open harness circuit.

Shorted harness circuit.

Damaged Ignition Control Module (ICM).

Damaged Powertrain Control Module (PCM).

DTC 212 indicates a loss of IDM input to the PCM.

Possible Causes:

Is vehicle a No Start?

Yes

Read more: http://www.justanswer.com/ford/0sqj6-trouble-codes-fo-1995-ford-f150.html#ixzz3fDBRN1wk

212 & 213

SPOUT circuit open

212 & 213; ping, rough idle, missing at speed; "...Misfiring, Rough Idle, Surge, & Ping-Knock Symptoms, due to a Magnetized Shutter Wheel, (Bronco & all Fords w/EEC IV & TFI); "...Inside the TFI distributor is a Hall-Effect sensor that provides an RPM and POSITION signal to the Ignition module and ECM for fuel and ignition control. Mounted to the distributor shaft is a "shutter-wheel" that passes through the Hall-Effect sensor. The slots or windows cut in the shutter-wheel are what makes the Hall-Effect sensor switch on/off to create the signal it sends out. The shutter-wheel is supposed to be a piece of "dead" steel but can become magnetized. A magnetized wheel can cause very erratic operation of the Hall-Effect and resulting erratic output signal. The Test: There are a couple of ways to check for this condition. One is to simply pull off the distributor cap and see if something steel will "stick" to the shutter-wheel. Make sure that whatever you are using to check the wheel with isn't magnetized itself. A more accurate method would be to watch the wave-form on the "SPOUT" wire with a Vantage or Lab-Scope. The SPOUT is the wire with the connector in it that you unplug to set ignition timing. Monitor the wave-pattern on the SPOUT with the timing-connector in. If there is anything erratic about the wave-form, unplug the timing connector and re-check the wave-form. If the pattern "cleans up" all of a sudden, chances are good that you have a magnetized shutter-wheel. The Fix: Most shutter-wheels can be removed from the distributor shaft with a couple of screws. Everybody seems to have their own way of de-magnetizing the wheels but good success has been had with bulk audio-tape erasers or by placing the wheel in an engine parts cleaning oven and baking it. That last one sounds weird but it works..."

219

SPOUT failure, spark timing has defaulted to 10 degrees BTDC

 
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BroncoStar

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@miesk5

Thank you so much for the info. I think that it's probably the 212 code. The diagnostic report showed 22, but I changed the MAP and I'm still having the same problem, so I think the code number of 22 must have been a typo. The vehicle starts and has good power, but just has the rough idle and missing at speed issue. I'll check the shutter wheel to see if it's gotten magnetized since it seems to be the easiest test to start out with. Thanks again for the info and i'll post with what I find out.

 

miesk5

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yo,

YW!

Ford went from two-digit to three-digit EEC IV Self-Test codes in 1991 to service the increasing number of service codes required to support various government On-Board Diagnostic (OBD) regulations. The phase-in from two-digit to three-digit codes started in the 1991 model year and is largely complete except for some medium/heavy trucks that will retain two digit codes through the 1994 model year.

Miesk5 NOTE; use BLACK CCD Ignition Modules in 94-96 Broncos

Here is more info on the correct ICM module by a pal who knows Ford EEC;

"I've done a LOT of research on this in the past few months. It turns out that indeed, Ford turned to a CCD (computer-controlled dwell) ignition module sometime between 1993 and 1995. I only found this out because, like you, I got the code 212 along with some ignition problems. Well, that and Steve83 and I had slight disagreement; I'd incorrectly assumed the parts catalogs to be correct, whereas his recollection was based upon Ford's schematics. Now I only trust the OE schematics and OE part numbers. I've bugged the local Ford dealer's parts people to DEATH over some stupid things like this.

I'll let you read this Standard Tech Tips article to give you a better idea of the difference, how to tell which you have, and what to do about it:

Originally Posted by Standard Motor Corporation

FORD- IDM FAULT CODES AFTER MODULE REPLACEMENT

If you run across a Ford vehicle that has an IDM (Ignition Diagnostic Monitor) fault code, this tip may be helpful.

The TFI module (Thick Film Integration, which refers to the type of internal circuitry used in this module) has been used on the EEC-IV system since its inception. There are two different module types, and, even though they may look alike, they are not interchangeable.

One type is referred to as the "Push Start" type, while the other is called the "CCD" (Computer Controlled Dwell) type. The "Push Start" module gets its name from the 4th pin on the module connector, which is a start signal inputfrom the starting system. When the module receives this 12 volt input, it increases or "Pushes" he ignition coil dwell for maximum coil output for easier starting. The "CCD" module does not use a start signal input, but does rely upon the ECM Spout input to control ignition coil primary dwell. By the way, ECM Spout controls ignition timing on both module systems.

Under normal running conditions, the "Push Start" module starts the ignition coil primary dwell time about 3.5 milliseconds before then next anticipated coil firing. At this point the module is waiting to see the Spout signal voltage change from low to high. When this happens, current flow to the coil is stopped, which will result in the coil firing. If the time is longer than 3.5 milliseconds, the module will reduce the primary current to prevent the coil from overheating, since it cannot anticipate the next coil firing. The "CCD" module relies solely on the ECM Spout input to change ignition coil primary dwell time. On this system, the trailing edge of the Spout wave will start the primary cycle, while the leading edge of the next wave will end it, resulting in the coil firing. The time in between signals is the dwell.

Both modules are used in systems where they may be mounted on the distributor, or, they may be remotely mounted away from the distributor (commonly called "Closed Bowl" versions). Usually, the "Push Start" modules are gray in color, while the "CCD" modules are black.

IDM is a feedback signal generated by the ignition system and is monitored at pin #4 of the ECM. Its purpose is to diagnose missed ignition primary pulses at the time the ECM commands the Spout signal to fire the coil. Since it is used solely for diagnostic purposes, if this circuit is not operating properly, it will not affect vehicle driveability.

Both "Push Start" and "CCD" systems produce an "IDM" signal, however, they do it in different ways. The "Push Start" system uses an external 22K ohm resistor (22,000 ohms) that is usually taped to the wiring harness that is connected to the negative terminal of the ignition coil. [On our trucks, it is usually located in the harness between the engine and the driver's side fender] This resistor is used to lower the voltage of the Tach signal being supplied to pin #4 of the ECM.

This external resistor is not used on the CCD system since it is part of the internal circuitry of the module, which produces the IDM signal. So, the IDM signal travels from pin #4 of the module directly to pin #4 of the ECM.

Oddly enough, the "Start" pin on the "Push Start" module is the same pin as the IDM pin on the "CCD" module. While the connectors are identical, interchanging the modules may or may not create a driveability problem, while tripping a fault code of #18, or # 212 (IDM code). These are problems consistent with interchanging one type module in place of the other.

Identifying the correct module for your vehicle can be accomplished in a number of ways. First, always refer to the correct application in the Engine Management catalog. If that information is not available, check the wiring of the vehicle. If pin # 4 of the module gets a start signal (which should be battery voltage) from the starter circuit, it's a "Push Start" system. On the other hand, if pin #4 of the module is wired directly to pin #4 of the ECM, then it's a CCD system (refer to diagram #5).

So, if your original TFI ignition module was black, the auto parts store more than likely sold you the wrong one. This is because ALMOST ALL of the parts stores' catalogs are WRONG. They all list the "push-start" type of module, NOT the correct CCD. I guess asking whether the original module was black or gray was too much trouble for the shitbags writing the catalogs; instead, they just plagiarized someone else's erred work.

Like the article says, you'll have to do some checking if you don't remember whether your original module was black or gray. Check the voltage on the TFI connector's #4 pin during cranking. A steady +12V signal during cranking means it's the older push-start (as outlined in the article). If it goes directly to the #4 pin on the PCM, it's a CCD.

Here's the F'ed up part: try asking for a CCD TFI ignition module in a parts store.

Not to worry. The Wells part number is F139, Niehoff's is FF413, BWD is CBE40, and Standard's number is LX-241, if that helps. Even Motorcraft's catalog was superseded by the push-start module; I guess Ford doesn't particularly care whether your diagnostic systems are working properly or not.

An alternative is to look up the ignition module for a 1994-1995 Mustang GT. These should also have the same, remote-mounted CCD modules the later Broncos should have. In this application, the Motorcraft part number is DY1077, with OE numbers: {#5U2Z-12A297-D, DY679, or F1PZ-12A297-A}.

__________________

SigEpBlue

 
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BroncoStar

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Ok.........this Bronco is driving me crazy!!! Just replaced the IAC valve and the throttle position sensor. The truck is running as bad as ever! It runs fine when I first start it up, but after about 15 mins of driving and a warm engine it starts running like crap again! Rough Idle at a stop when it's In drive...... When I put it in park, it idles fine. Could this be a bad torque converter? I am at my wits end with this thing......don't know how much longer I can deal with this!   

 
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BroncoStar

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Oh, and it doesn't stall at all and starts right up every time.............it's just when it reaches a normal running temp that it runs like crap!!!!

 

miesk5

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yo, Can you het help to do the self Test for Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTC)s by my pal, BroncoJoe19?

Here are some possible causes for the rough running when eng is @ normal op temp:

Hall Effect (Profile Ignition Pick-up (PIP) Signal, Stator, RPM)

Stator and TFI both share the same grounds and power circuits, when one fails the other might be bad as well. It�s a standard practice at dealerships and most quality repair shops to replace the TFI and stator at the same time. This prevents the problem from re-appearing a few weeks latter.

Source: by Ryan M (Fireguy50)

Testing, Overview & Diagrams, Fender Mounted Ignition Control Module (ICM); "...Whether your Ford or Mercury car or truck CRANKS but DOES NOT START or runs with a MISFIRE Condition, this article is for you. With the tests I'm gonna' show you, you'll be able to pinpoint the problem to the Ignition Control Module or the Ignition Coil or the Profile Ignition Pickup Sensor (PIP Sensor) or the Spark Plug Wires or the Distributor Cap.

http://easyautodiagnostics.com/ford_ign_fender/fender_mounted_module_1.php

DTC 212 indicates a loss of IDM input to the PCM; "...Open harness circuit. Shorted harness circuit. Damaged Ignition Control Module (ICM). Damaged Powertrain Control Module (PCM)..." READ MORE Miesk5 NOTE; use BLACK CCD Ignition Modules in 94-96 Broncos

Source: by Jim at http://www.justanswer.com/ford/0sqj6-trouble-codes-fo-1995-ford-f150.html

Ignition Control Module (ICM) (Ford & other makes) General Descriptions; "...A major cause of failure is heat... especially typical on Ford, is intermittent failure. The car runs okay for a while, then stops. When it cools, it runs okay for a while longer. Then it stops again. And so on. This is a fairly certain indication of a heat failure fault which can be prevented from recurring by using the heat-resistant module replacement offered by us -- and you. All transistors and other solid state components have specific temperature ranges within which they work. If they go outside the temperature range, they either stop working or destroy themselves. Vibration is another enemy of the module since it causes the circuit path to break on the printed circuit board. Testing with simple, hand-held testers (figures 6) will tell the story. Every mechanic who works on domestic cars and engines needs a tester like this one. And many DIYs will have them, too. A third failure mode (figure 6) is mishandling or poor installation technique, especially with the small and somewhat fragile GM unit. It doesn't take much effort with a screwdriver, nor more than a small particle of sand or dirt on the mounting plate, to fracture the case of the GM module. In addition, heat dissipation (figure 7) is accomplished only if the right type of heat-conductive silicone grease is used between the module and the mounting plate. Poor ground connections are another failure mode. All modules must have a good connection between their cases and their mounting surfaces. A fifth failure mode is corrosion of the terminals. Bad connections fail a lot of systems. A sixth failure mode comes from applying improper voltages to the system. Most of these devices are protected from hooking up the battery or connectors backward. However, none of them is protected from over-voltage -- such as that applied when a mechanic gangs up a couple of 12-volt batteries to give an additional starting boost to a hard starting engine. Recap, Modules, used with trigger mechanisms, replace the points and condenser used in conventional contact-breaker or coil-and-breaker systems. Different manufacturers have different names for their modules. GM calls their a (module) (contacter), Ford calls theirs a (module) (modulator assembly), and Chrysler calls theirs a (controller) (control module)..."

Source: by napaechlin.com

Hesitation, Stumble, Stall, Miss, No Start, No Spark and/or Diagnostic Trouble Code (DTC) 211 TSB 95-15-11 for 93-95 (Shorts in Profile Ignition Pickup (PIP) & Spark Output (SPOUT)); "..The symptoms may occur during any drive mode or at idle. These concerns may be caused by the shielding drain wire (Circuit 48.) cutting through the insulation of, and shorting to, the Profile Ignition Pickup (PIP) wire (Circuit 395) or the spark output (SPOUT) wire (Circuit 929) near the Powertrain Control Module (PCM) 60-pin connector. A protruding wire from Splice 145 may also cause the same concern as the wire strand shorts to the PIP, SPOUT, or the foil wrap surrounding the drain wire..."

http://web.archive.org/web/20120905193838/http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/babarche/2009-09-28_180638_TSB_95-15-11_Wires_shorting_near_ignition_module.pdf

 
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BroncoStar

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Just replaced the thermostat, O2 sensor and air charge temp sensor. None of which made much difference. Tried the KOER test and didn't get any readings. Did the KOEO test and got the 111 code twice and the 212 as a stored code. I guess I'll hafta try the Hall effect test and see if it's one of the things mentioned earlier. Thanks for all the help. This is so frustrating.

 

miesk5

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yo,

I have see the short found in a few Broncos so far

DTC 212 indicates a loss of IDM input to the PCM; "...Open harness circuit. Shorted harness circuit. Damaged Ignition Control Module (ICM). Damaged Powertrain Control Module (PCM)..." READ MORE Miesk5 NOTE; use BLACK CCD Ignition Modules in 94-96 Broncos

Source: by Jim at http://www.justanswe...-ford-f150.html

DTC 212 (Ignition module circuit failure-SPOUT circuit grounded); "...Check to see if the spout connector is good by running a piece of wire where the connector is supposed to go. If that doesn't help any try checking the wiring all the way until it goes into the connectors..."

Source: by NoSlow5oh

 
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BroncoStar

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I guess I'm confused. I don't know what you mean by "running a piece of wire where the connector is supposed to go." Can you expand on this a little?

 
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BroncoStar

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So after replacing a multitude of sensors, the thermostat and the fuel pressure regulator, it ended up being the plug wires. ugh! one of the wires had cracked and when the truck got up to normal operating temp, the crack caused the wires to arc, causing the mis-fire. My bronco runs like new and couldn't be happier!!! yay!

 
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BroncoStar

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I feel so stupid for not checking the plug wires first.............ugh!!!

 

miesk5

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yo,

While I was in hospital recently; my Much Better-Half had plug wires replaced due to slight misfire; new set was typical import crap although she did specify Motorcraft ONLY!

2 weeks later; while I was driving to doc's, Bronco shut down; crap coil high tension wire to distr. had Melted at coil connection. Shop replaced all wires with what my wife paid for, Motorcraft.

 
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