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#1 Anderson

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Posted 27 October 2011 - 04:32 PM

89 Bronco. V-8 351 EFI with throttle body. Automatic tranny. As far as we know it is all stock except for 2" lift kit. Had this vehicle about 9 moths. It had been neglected. We had a lot of trouble with over heating, but have that solved with new fan shroud- they left it off after installing lift kit, and a new clutch fan. This vehicle was vapor locking when it overheated and we are now wondering if this new is part of the proble, also. Climbing a step grade in 4 low and moving along slow, the engine flooded. NO sputs no sputters until just moments before the engine killed. Blowing a good amount of black smoke while trying to restart. Smell of fuel obvious. Backed down to a more level area, and tried to restart. Got it to go enough to reverse a few feet, but it was running really rich (more black smoke). Let it stand for 30 mintues and it took right off and away we went with no more issues, but we did a 5 point turn around and went back downhill. Sorry if this has been discussed - I couldn't find it. Realatively new to Ford Broncos and at a loss - especially with EFI and throttle body, but it definetly seemed flodded! any ideas appreciated! Thanks My thoughts - junk in the tank? Weak fuel pump? Inertia switch too sensitive?

#2 miesk5

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 03:07 AM

YO ANDERSON,
WELCOME!
I assume it is running ok now?

Try a Self Test for Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTC)s by my pal, BroncoJoe19

There are two types of Tests, Key On Engine Off (KOEO) & Key On Engine Running (KOER).

The engine temperature must be greater than 50°F for the KOEO Self-Test and greater than 180°F for the KOER Self-Test.
Run it around to heat the engine up and shift thru all gears incl Reverse. Then turn off all accessories/lights, etc.

Make sure A/C is off and transmission is in Park (automatic) or in Neutral for a Manual & release clutch.

Do Key On Engine Off (KOEO) portion first.

Look Codes up in my broncolinks.com site using the new Search function.

And Post em here according to:
KOEO
&
KOER

-----

Guesses (but don't buy any parts until you do the tests
Defective Fuel Pressure Regulator (FPR), pressure too high (pull vacuum line off and any odor of gas or gas in it means the reg is bad
Location in Engine Bay pic Source: by Ryan M

bad:
O2 sensor
Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) Sensor
96 XL 5.0 E4OD, Manual BW 1356, manual hubs. See my partially recovered Bronco site. I need to clean up dead links & add many more. Thanks you Mr, Schwim! http://schwimserver5.com/?index=1128
THANKS to ALL WHO SERVE!

#3 Anderson

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Posted 28 October 2011 - 09:34 AM

Thanks miesk5. Be patient it may take a while to get to the trouble codes. As for 'running okay now' It's running as good as it has from the time we got it. I say we because it is my son's, but I am the p.p.p. mechanic that gets to work on it, and I use every op to teach the kid a thing or two. It's satifying in that he is ever more confident to tackle stuff like this. I might add here that even though I only joined yesterday I have been to this site a bunch of times finding out Bronco STUFF that has helped a lot. Very helpful. Back on subject now. I have always thought this vehicle is running sluggish. Seems a little under powered. Gut feeling is she's a little sick, but there is a real 'Bronco' in there somewhere waiting to get out with a little help. (gads that sounds corney). Will post trouble codes when I can get them....anybody have the issue of work getitng in the way of funner things? The link to the trouble code tutorial- awesome. I also linked to the TPS tutorial, just in case-thought it wouldn't hurt.

#4 Anderson

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Posted 28 November 2011 - 03:27 PM

I finally had time to try and run some DTC's as per the below (way down) and per below I am posting results. Here are the codes it delivered KOEO:
67
67
129
32
87
29
32
87
That's it. IN this order and I am a bit at odds on 129 it flashed out more like a 1 and then a 29, but I could find no code for just a number 1? ( I think I tried this about 50 times to try and make sure I got all the numbers correct ) I beleive ( most confident) it is a 129

I could not get it to deliver any codes with the engine running! KOER Tried with just the engine light and then tried with a volt meter. No luck. Would not even flash a light or jump a needle. Any ideas?

Thanks for your time. I am interested in what these mean -as in what needs to be replaced and the next step on the KOER diagnostic? I have a Haynes repair manual, but there is nothing like experience! Oh, and I still haven't pulled off the vacuum line to check for fuel smell Is this vacuum line in the Engine bay location pic by Ryan M? Thanks again.




Posted 28 October 2011 - 03:07 AM

YO ANDERSON,
WELCOME!
I assume it is running ok now?

Try a Self Test for Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTC)s by my pal, BroncoJoe19

There are two types of Tests, Key On Engine Off (KOEO) & Key On Engine Running (KOER).

The engine temperature must be greater than 50°F for the KOEO Self-Test and greater than 180°F for the KOER Self-Test.
Run it around to heat the engine up and shift thru all gears incl Reverse. Then turn off all accessories/lights, etc.

Make sure A/C is off and transmission is in Park (automatic) or in Neutral for a Manual & release clutch.

Do Key On Engine Off (KOEO) portion first.

Look Codes up in my broncolinks.com site using the new Search function.

And Post em here according to:
KOEO
&
KOER

-----

Guesses (but don't buy any parts until you do the tests
Defective Fuel Pressure Regulator (FPR), pressure too high (pull vacuum line off and any odor of gas or gas in it means the reg is bad
Location in Engine Bay pic Source: by Ryan M

bad:
O2 sensor
Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) Sensor

#5 miesk5

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 06:38 AM

yo ANDERSON

Check that Red (may have been replaced w/black by a previous owner) vac hose on the FPR first for any fuel or aroma;
Ryan's pic is gone now, so
look at Cole's pic
Posted Image

And; A vacuum leak will reduce intake vacuum and cause the MAP sensor to indicate a higher than normal load on the engine. The computer will try to compensate by richening the fuel mixture and retarding timing

Vacuum Leak Test; On an idling engine check for vacuum leaks using a mechanic's stethoscope with the probe removed, or a ~3' garden hose section. On COLD ENGINE only, use propane torch w/rubber hose attached, UNLIT or spray carb cleaner, when it gets to the the leak the RPMs will rise. Also check: vacuum hoses; intake manifold gasket & throttle body; Tree Location pic in a 94 5.8 Source: by joelb23 at SuperMotors.net; PCV pic by Bbronco311. Vacuum Reservoirs: EGR Sys Vacuum Tank & 2ndry air (looks like a coffee can in earlier years) Depiction & Location in Parts Break-Out Diagram in a 96 w/Ford part numbers by Ford via miesk5 at http://www.broncolin...6TABTAB5.0.jpg; Thermactor Air Bypass Solenoid (TAB, AIRB, AM1) w/Pink vacuum line & Air Bypass Valve (AIR BPV) & Thermactor Air Diverter Solenoid (TAD, AIRD, AM2) w/Yellow vacuum line & Air Diverter Valve or Air Control Valve (ACV) see my site @ http://www.broncolin...x.php?index=416 & EGR Vacuum Regulator (EVR); also called EGR Vacuum Solenoid & EGR Valve Position (EVP) - MIESK5 NOTE: EVP is used on all years except for 95 5.8L California models & all 96, they use the DPFE Sensor instead of EGR Valve Position Sensor (EVP) etc, see my site @ http://www.broncolin....php?index=146. AC, heater, defroster, vent control ckt & vacuum tank (plastic ball, or an irregular box glued to the evaporator cover), under dash & lines to heat/blend/etc. doors; & HVAC vacuum reservoir; Vacuum Tank pic, Ford part number 19A566; on side of evaporator housing by Ford via miesk5 at FSB. Carbon Canister (Charcoal Canister, Vapor Canister, Evaporative Emission (EVAP) Canister for the Evaporative System (see http://fullsizebronc...1&d=1315917794. & Line to & the power brake booster, Master Cylinder & Booster Location pic in a 93 Posted Image by Steve83. ; and line to & Cruise Control sys in 86-91.

Do you have a vac gauge? One of best diagnostic tools!
Vacuum Gauge Diagnosis - BEST!; Normal engine; Steady gauge 18"-20" at all speeds..." READ MUCH MORE by Craig U at http://www.classictr.../vac/uum.htm...

for the NO codes in KOER;
Hard Codes are for issues that the EEC is seeing at the time of the self test. Examples are a sensor out of range or a broken wire (open circuit).
Hard Does are the FIRST set of slow codes output in a Key On Engine Off (KOEO) portion, before the seperator pulse.

On most 1988 and all 1989 and later models, the EEC does not enter the KOER self-test if any of the on-demand codes found during the KOEO self-test are not corrected. If KOEO on-demand codes are present, the EEC will not allow the KOER test to run. In a scan gauge, a “fix all hard codes” message displays when the KOER self-test is selected.
Memory codes are problems that the computer has noticed in the past. If for example there was a loose wire to a solenoid that only lost contact while driving but was making contact while testing the system there would be NO HARD FAULT CODE. The code would show up IN MEMORY. The same would happen for a sensor that only went out of range occasionally. Memory codes come out AFTER the separator pulse. The EEC will erase the memory after a certain number of engine re-starts if the problem does not repeat itself. The number of re-starts varies from 20 to 80 depending on the year of the vehicle. The later models keep memory longer.


read this;
NO CODES TROUBLESHOOTINGIt takes time to load
by Ryan M

excerpts;
"Check Battery voltage, must be above 10.5 volts.
Check alternator output, must be between 13.5 and 14.5 volts.
Check Manual Lever Position (MLPS)
Check EEC relay, must show battery voltage when engaged. Replace relay and damaged wiring if not.

....

===========
DTC 67 & 634 indicate the Manual Lever Position (MLPS) is out of Self-Test range when the gear selector is in PARK; "...Possible causes: Misadjusted linkage. Open or short in harness circuits. Damaged MLP sensor. Damaged PCM
DTC 67 & DTC 634; E4OD Nagging Neutral Nonsense & Pinpoint Test, Manual Lever Position (MLPS) also called Transmission Range (TR) Sensor. "...One of the most-difficult problems to diagnose on a Ford car or truck is a sudden neutral condition while the vehicle is cruising in 4th gear. Now this can have a number of causes, depending on which transmission is in the car or truck, but the cause we are going to discuss here is that #(~! *&A% Manual Lever Position Sensor – that’s right, the old MLPS. This sensor is responsible for more malfunctions than any other sensor in the system, and the kicker is that it seldom stores a code 67 or 634. Actually there is a standing joke in our industry that says, “You got a problem with a Ford, change the MLPS; it fixes everything,” which ain’t that funny because it’s not that far from the truth. Some of the problems the MLPS can cause are wrong gear starts, TCC hunting, no 4th gear, engine stalling, high or erratic line pressure and the problem that this article is about – a sudden neutral condition. READ MORE
by Pete L at transonline.com
============

DTC 27, 29, 452, P0502, P0503, PO716, PO718; Insufficient input from VSS.; "...A more difficult problem to identify is a VSS that works, but sends out the wrong signal for a given vehicle speed. In some cases, a wrong reading from the VSS may still cause a code to be set. For example, if the VSS signal tells the computer the vehicle is traveling 60 miles an hour, but the throttle position sensor and MAP sensor tell the computer that the engine is idling, the computer will be confused. And a confused computer should set any of the following codes: Ford 27, 29, 452. On a vehicle that uses the VSS as a safety device, a defective sensor may send out a wrong "too fast" signal, shutting down fuel flow at the wrong time. Although this doesn’t happen often, it can be a difficult problem to identify. The customer will probably describe it as a random or intermittent sudden loss of power and poor performance, only to have the engine resume normal operation. Routine diagnostic checks of the engine in the shop won’t show any problem because there isn’t a problem with the engine or the ECM..." read more
Source: by wellsmfgcorp.com


=================
DTC 32 is set when the computer detects a richer fuel mixture off idle (indicating no EGR).


---
"...DTC 32/326 typically means that the EGR valve is not fully seated. This can be due to a bad EGR valve, vacuum trapped in the EGR hose, a clogged EVR filter, or a bad EVR solenoid.
Try disconnecting the system and retesting..."
Source: by tomco-inc.com
DTC 32/328 "...in Key On Engine Off (KOEO) and Key On Engine Running (KOER) indicates that the EGR valve and/or EVP sensor voltage is lower than normal in the closed position. The EVP voltage is less than the closed limit voltage of 0.24 volts. Because of the preload of the EVP sensor it is very difficult to determine whether the EGR valve has malfunctioned or the EVP sensor has an abnormally high resistance. Possible causes: Poor continuity in EVP sensor harness or connectors. Damaged EGR valve. Damaged EVP sensor. Damaged Powertrain Control Module (PCM). Key off. Disconnect EVP sensor. Inspect the connectors at harness and sensor for damaged pins, corrosion, loose wires, etc. Service as necessary. Remove vacuum line from EGR valve. Exercise EGR valve by applying and releasing vacuum with a vacuum pump. Reconnect vacuum line to EGR valve and electrical connector to EVP sensor. Rerun Key On Engine Off (KOEO) and Key On Engine Running (KOER) Self-Test. Is DTC 32 or 328 still present? Yes - GO to DN26. No - The original DTC 32/328 was the result of poor continuity at the EVP sensor connector or binding of the EGR valve stem by contaminants. Testing complete..."
Source: by Brian

=============
DTC 87 - Fuel Pump Relay Circuit Failure: "...suspect inertia switch, fusible link, FP relay..."
Source: by miesk5 at Ford Bronco Zone Forums

These codes relate to low or no power reaching the fuel pump. Start testing at the fuel pump relay. The relay must respond to the EEC processor and the relay contacts must be a low resistance path for fuel pump power. Relay testing can be done in a couple minutes with the fuel pump test table.



Wiring Diagram in an 89
Posted Image
Source: by SeattleFSB (Seattle FSB) at SuperMotors.net
96 XL 5.0 E4OD, Manual BW 1356, manual hubs. See my partially recovered Bronco site. I need to clean up dead links & add many more. Thanks you Mr, Schwim! http://schwimserver5.com/?index=1128
THANKS to ALL WHO SERVE!

#6 Anderson

Anderson

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 03:37 PM

yo ANDERSON

Check that Red (may have been replaced w/black by a previous owner) vac hose on the FPR first for any fuel or aroma;
Ryan's pic is gone now, so
look at Cole's pic
Posted Image

And; A vacuum leak will reduce intake vacuum and cause the MAP sensor to indicate a higher than normal load on the engine. The computer will try to compensate by richening the fuel mixture and retarding timing

Vacuum Leak Test; On an idling engine check for vacuum leaks using a mechanic's stethoscope with the probe removed, or a ~3' garden hose section. On COLD ENGINE only, use propane torch w/rubber hose attached, UNLIT or spray carb cleaner, when it gets to the the leak the RPMs will rise. Also check: vacuum hoses; intake manifold gasket & throttle body; Tree Location pic in a 94 5.8 Source: by joelb23 at SuperMotors.net; PCV pic by Bbronco311. Vacuum Reservoirs: EGR Sys Vacuum Tank & 2ndry air (looks like a coffee can in earlier years) Depiction & Location in Parts Break-Out Diagram in a 96 w/Ford part numbers by Ford via miesk5 at http://www.broncolin...6TABTAB5.0.jpg; Thermactor Air Bypass Solenoid (TAB, AIRB, AM1) w/Pink vacuum line & Air Bypass Valve (AIR BPV) & Thermactor Air Diverter Solenoid (TAD, AIRD, AM2) w/Yellow vacuum line & Air Diverter Valve or Air Control Valve (ACV) see my site @ http://www.broncolin...x.php?index=416 & EGR Vacuum Regulator (EVR); also called EGR Vacuum Solenoid & EGR Valve Position (EVP) - MIESK5 NOTE: EVP is used on all years except for 95 5.8L California models & all 96, they use the DPFE Sensor instead of EGR Valve Position Sensor (EVP) etc, see my site @ http://www.broncolin....php?index=146. AC, heater, defroster, vent control ckt & vacuum tank (plastic ball, or an irregular box glued to the evaporator cover), under dash & lines to heat/blend/etc. doors; & HVAC vacuum reservoir; Vacuum Tank pic, Ford part number 19A566; on side of evaporator housing by Ford via miesk5 at FSB. Carbon Canister (Charcoal Canister, Vapor Canister, Evaporative Emission (EVAP) Canister for the Evaporative System (see http://fullsizebronc...1&d=1315917794. & Line to & the power brake booster, Master Cylinder & Booster Location pic in a 93 Posted Image by Steve83. ; and line to & Cruise Control sys in 86-91.

Do you have a vac gauge? One of best diagnostic tools!
Vacuum Gauge Diagnosis - BEST!; Normal engine; Steady gauge 18"-20" at all speeds..." READ MUCH MORE by Craig U at http://www.classictr.../vac/uum.htm...

for the NO codes in KOER;
Hard Codes are for issues that the EEC is seeing at the time of the self test. Examples are a sensor out of range or a broken wire (open circuit).
Hard Does are the FIRST set of slow codes output in a Key On Engine Off (KOEO) portion, before the seperator pulse.

On most 1988 and all 1989 and later models, the EEC does not enter the KOER self-test if any of the on-demand codes found during the KOEO self-test are not corrected. If KOEO on-demand codes are present, the EEC will not allow the KOER test to run. In a scan gauge, a “fix all hard codes” message displays when the KOER self-test is selected.
Memory codes are problems that the computer has noticed in the past. If for example there was a loose wire to a solenoid that only lost contact while driving but was making contact while testing the system there would be NO HARD FAULT CODE. The code would show up IN MEMORY. The same would happen for a sensor that only went out of range occasionally. Memory codes come out AFTER the separator pulse. The EEC will erase the memory after a certain number of engine re-starts if the problem does not repeat itself. The number of re-starts varies from 20 to 80 depending on the year of the vehicle. The later models keep memory longer.


read this;
NO CODES TROUBLESHOOTINGIt takes time to load
by Ryan M

excerpts;
"Check Battery voltage, must be above 10.5 volts.
Check alternator output, must be between 13.5 and 14.5 volts.
Check Manual Lever Position (MLPS)
Check EEC relay, must show battery voltage when engaged. Replace relay and damaged wiring if not.

....

===========
DTC 67 & 634 indicate the Manual Lever Position (MLPS) is out of Self-Test range when the gear selector is in PARK; "...Possible causes: Misadjusted linkage. Open or short in harness circuits. Damaged MLP sensor. Damaged PCM
DTC 67 & DTC 634; E4OD Nagging Neutral Nonsense & Pinpoint Test, Manual Lever Position (MLPS) also called Transmission Range (TR) Sensor. "...One of the most-difficult problems to diagnose on a Ford car or truck is a sudden neutral condition while the vehicle is cruising in 4th gear. Now this can have a number of causes, depending on which transmission is in the car or truck, but the cause we are going to discuss here is that #(~! *&A% Manual Lever Position Sensor – that’s right, the old MLPS. This sensor is responsible for more malfunctions than any other sensor in the system, and the kicker is that it seldom stores a code 67 or 634. Actually there is a standing joke in our industry that says, “You got a problem with a Ford, change the MLPS; it fixes everything,” which ain’t that funny because it’s not that far from the truth. Some of the problems the MLPS can cause are wrong gear starts, TCC hunting, no 4th gear, engine stalling, high or erratic line pressure and the problem that this article is about – a sudden neutral condition. READ MORE
by Pete L at transonline.com
============

DTC 27, 29, 452, P0502, P0503, PO716, PO718; Insufficient input from VSS.; "...A more difficult problem to identify is a VSS that works, but sends out the wrong signal for a given vehicle speed. In some cases, a wrong reading from the VSS may still cause a code to be set. For example, if the VSS signal tells the computer the vehicle is traveling 60 miles an hour, but the throttle position sensor and MAP sensor tell the computer that the engine is idling, the computer will be confused. And a confused computer should set any of the following codes: Ford 27, 29, 452. On a vehicle that uses the VSS as a safety device, a defective sensor may send out a wrong "too fast" signal, shutting down fuel flow at the wrong time. Although this doesn’t happen often, it can be a difficult problem to identify. The customer will probably describe it as a random or intermittent sudden loss of power and poor performance, only to have the engine resume normal operation. Routine diagnostic checks of the engine in the shop won’t show any problem because there isn’t a problem with the engine or the ECM..." read more
Source: by wellsmfgcorp.com


=================
DTC 32 is set when the computer detects a richer fuel mixture off idle (indicating no EGR).


---
"...DTC 32/326 typically means that the EGR valve is not fully seated. This can be due to a bad EGR valve, vacuum trapped in the EGR hose, a clogged EVR filter, or a bad EVR solenoid.
Try disconnecting the system and retesting..."
Source: by tomco-inc.com
DTC 32/328 "...in Key On Engine Off (KOEO) and Key On Engine Running (KOER) indicates that the EGR valve and/or EVP sensor voltage is lower than normal in the closed position. The EVP voltage is less than the closed limit voltage of 0.24 volts. Because of the preload of the EVP sensor it is very difficult to determine whether the EGR valve has malfunctioned or the EVP sensor has an abnormally high resistance. Possible causes: Poor continuity in EVP sensor harness or connectors. Damaged EGR valve. Damaged EVP sensor. Damaged Powertrain Control Module (PCM). Key off. Disconnect EVP sensor. Inspect the connectors at harness and sensor for damaged pins, corrosion, loose wires, etc. Service as necessary. Remove vacuum line from EGR valve. Exercise EGR valve by applying and releasing vacuum with a vacuum pump. Reconnect vacuum line to EGR valve and electrical connector to EVP sensor. Rerun Key On Engine Off (KOEO) and Key On Engine Running (KOER) Self-Test. Is DTC 32 or 328 still present? Yes - GO to DN26. No - The original DTC 32/328 was the result of poor continuity at the EVP sensor connector or binding of the EGR valve stem by contaminants. Testing complete..."
Source: by Brian

=============
DTC 87 - Fuel Pump Relay Circuit Failure: "...suspect inertia switch, fusible link, FP relay..."
Source: by miesk5 at Ford Bronco Zone Forums

These codes relate to low or no power reaching the fuel pump. Start testing at the fuel pump relay. The relay must respond to the EEC processor and the relay contacts must be a low resistance path for fuel pump power. Relay testing can be done in a couple minutes with the fuel pump test table.



Wiring Diagram in an 89
Posted Image
Source: by SeattleFSB (Seattle FSB) at SuperMotors.net



#7 Anderson

Anderson

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Posted 29 November 2011 - 03:42 PM

My GADS!! This is great - It took a while to get the codes. It may take a while to get through all this, but I am speechless. This is more than I expected in the way of help. I can do all those things. I suspect I will find a little here and a little there. Like I said first post, this is a sweet ride that had been neglected. THANKS! As I get time to do some of these checks I can post results as I go.

#8 miesk5

miesk5

    Al

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 04:36 AM

yo,

If you need more info, such as component locations/testing etc. see my site or just ask here

for instance, the EGR Valve Position (EVP) is at http://www.broncolin...x.php?index=414
EGR Valve is at http://www.broncolin...x.php?index=415
96 XL 5.0 E4OD, Manual BW 1356, manual hubs. See my partially recovered Bronco site. I need to clean up dead links & add many more. Thanks you Mr, Schwim! http://schwimserver5.com/?index=1128
THANKS to ALL WHO SERVE!

#9 Anderson

Anderson

    Duck Tape L'fixer :)

  • Members
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Posted 30 November 2011 - 03:47 PM

yo,

If you need more info, such as component locations/testing etc. see my site or just ask here

for instance, the EGR Valve Position (EVP) is at http://www.broncolin...x.php?index=414
EGR Valve is at http://www.broncolin...x.php?index=415



#10 Anderson

Anderson

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Posted 30 November 2011 - 03:48 PM

okay - thanks again!



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