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Wires crossed at Solenoid?


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#1 tmrltree

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Posted 20 June 2009 - 02:43 PM

Below is a picture of my solenoid, and descriptions of where the wires are running to. Some small background of my problem. I left my Bronco with my mother-in-law's boyfriend. After him replacing the solenoid I have not been able to get it to turn over. When I turn the key I get a loud buzzing sound, and if my jumper cables are attached to the battery they get extremely hot, and begin to smoke.

I have looked at the wiring diagram in Haynes, but non of my wire colors match, not a huge problem, but they do appear to be going to the right places, unless I am misreading the diagram. I think i may completely disconnect the MSD, to see if I can get it to fire without it, thought that it might be pushing volts back into the battery. Not sure though.

They Bronco has suffered flood damage since I left it, and may not be able to get it to fire anyhow until I drain everything, but I was at least hoping to tackle this problem soon, just for a small amount of hope that I can get it going again.

Picture and descriptions may be vague, but I well answer any questions you all may have that might help me get this thing fired up!

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#2 tmrltree

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Posted 20 June 2009 - 02:47 PM

Sorry y'all. Should have posted this in Tech Support.

#3 Justshootme84

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Posted 20 June 2009 - 07:30 PM

It looks like you have two separate wires running to the starter? Do you have the stock starter, or something aftermarket with a solenoid attached to it? The big cable from the post opposite of the battery cable should be the primary circuit to the starter. Try unhooking the other small wire from the middle small post. You also have alot of excess wiring on the two small posts. One of those should be from your ignition keyswitch. That key-start wire will activate the solenoid. JSM84
1984 Bronco XLT, 460, C-6 AT, Dana60, Sterling 10.25", 36" GYR RT-II's on H1 rims, S&W Racecars 10-pt cage kit, PRP racing seats, tube doors, Herculiner, custom "shaker" assembly.

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#4 Seabronc

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Posted 20 June 2009 - 07:52 PM

The MSD should have 2 12V connections; 1. to 12V that is hot at all times, 2. to 12v that is hot in start and run. Off the top of my head the 12V hot at all times is the heaver of the two red wires from the MSD, a possible connection for that one would be the the left terminal on the solenoid. The other red to the MSD would not connect to the solenoid at all, it should go to a red with green stripe wire which you should be able to locate on the driver side, ( it used to go to the Duraspark II system).

The wire going to the carb should go to one of two places, not the solenoid. If it is a stock Ford carb it goes to the stator connection on the alternator approximately 7 volts, if it is an aftermarket carb, it should go to a 12V source that is hot in run, (possibly the same place as the small red wire from the MSD).

I have no clue what the fused line connects to, if it goes to something that needs to be hot 12V at all times then it is in the right place to get that. Possibly the other circuits in the truck.

The two on the small terminals that have push on connectors are correct, one is ground and one is hot when the key is in the start position and should not be hot at any other time.

I'm not sure why there is a small wire going to the starter. What year truck is this and does it have the correct starter in it. The only reason I can think of for such a wire is to operate a solenoid on the starter. Is there a solenoid on the starter? If that is the case then the battery would go directly to the starter and the wiring would change a bit. In that case the relay pictured would be a start relay and not the solenoid, (there is a difference and the wiring changes a bit).

Good luck,

:)>-
Fred

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#5 tmrltree

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Posted 21 June 2009 - 07:04 AM

It looks like you have two separate wires running to the starter? Do you have the stock starter, or something aftermarket with a solenoid attached to it? The big cable from the post opposite of the battery cable should be the primary circuit to the starter. Try unhooking the other small wire from the middle small post. You also have alot of excess wiring on the two small posts. One of those should be from your ignition keyswitch. That key-start wire will activate the solenoid. JSM84

I'm not sure why there is a small wire going to the starter. What year truck is this and does it have the correct starter in it. The only reason I can think of for such a wire is to operate a solenoid on the starter. Is there a solenoid on the starter? If that is the case then the battery would go directly to the starter and the wiring would change a bit. In that case the relay pictured would be a start relay and not the solenoid, (there is a difference and the wiring changes a bit).


Thanks for replying, the pictures below show where the wires coming off the solenoid attach. Basically the skinny Brown one connected at the "I" terminal runs to the 11 o'clock post while the thick one runs to the 8 o'clock post, may be hard to see from the pics.

Posted Image
Posted Image


The MSD should have 2 12V connections; 1. to 12V that is hot at all times, 2. to 12v that is hot in start and run. Off the top of my head the 12V hot at all times is the heaver of the two red wires from the MSD, a possible connection for that one would be the the left terminal on the solenoid. The other red to the MSD would not connect to the solenoid at all, it should go to a red with green stripe wire which you should be able to locate on the driver side, ( it used to go to the Duraspark II system).

The wire going to the carb should go to one of two places, not the solenoid. If it is a stock Ford carb it goes to the stator connection on the alternator approximately 7 volts, if it is an aftermarket carb, it should go to a 12V source that is hot in run, (possibly the same place as the small red wire from the MSD).

I have no clue what the fused line connects to, if it goes to something that needs to be hot 12V at all times then it is in the right place to get that. Possibly the other circuits in the truck.

The two on the small terminals that have push on connectors are correct, one is ground and one is hot when the key is in the start position and should not be hot at any other time.


Good luck,

:)>-


The MSD has 2 red wires, one attaches to the positive battery cable, and the other is currently ran to the "I" terminal on the solenoid. I believe the wire attached to the battery cable is a tad bit thicker then the one on the "I" post. Not by much.

It is not a stock carb, its an Edelbrock 1400 series. The vehicle ran fine with the carb wire attached to the solenoid. If I was to run it with the MSD, it would be linked directly to the battery cable. This may be an option. Mind you all this wiring was done like this when I bought it, so it's making it a hell of a time to get it all back to "right".

The yellow fused line becomes a black and white line and runs to a harness (Pic below of harness) I feel this wire is correct.

I pulled the slip on wire off of the "I" terminal, both the wire and post were corroded, non of the others were like this.

Edited by tmrltree, 21 June 2009 - 07:09 AM.


#6 Seabronc

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Posted 21 June 2009 - 08:26 AM

Thanks for replying, the pictures below show where the wires coming off the solenoid attach. Basically the skinny Brown one connected at the "I" terminal runs to the 11 o'clock post while the thick one runs to the 8 o'clock post, may be hard to see from the pics.

Posted Image
Posted Image




The MSD has 2 red wires, one attaches to the positive battery cable, and the other is currently ran to the "I" terminal on the solenoid. I believe the wire attached to the battery cable is a tad bit thicker then the one on the "I" post. Not by much.

It is not a stock carb, its an Edelbrock 1400 series. The vehicle ran fine with the carb wire attached to the solenoid. If I was to run it with the MSD, it would be linked directly to the battery cable. This may be an option. Mind you all this wiring was done like this when I bought it, so it's making it a hell of a time to get it all back to "right".

The yellow fused line becomes a black and white line and runs to a harness (Pic below of harness) I feel this wire is correct.

I pulled the slip on wire off of the "I" terminal, both the wire and post were corroded, non of the others were like this.


that may have been how it was wired when you got it, but that is not the way they should be wired.

If you run the carb heater to that point, it will only have power as long as you hold the key in the start position. It needs to go to a circuit that is hot in the Start and Run positions of the key.

The proper MSD wiring is to have thelarge red hot at all times and the small red hooked to the circuit that is hot in Start and Run.

Apparently the fused wire goes to the other truck circuits and is correctly connected.

You have a start solenoid on the starter so then the one on th fender is a start relay and it is wired incorrectly for that application. With a start relay both the heavy cables go directly to the left terminal and the small one that goes to the starter goes to the other large terminal.

The two push on connectors are correct.

Good luck,
Fred

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#7 BLADE262US

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Posted 21 June 2009 - 09:34 AM

Yeah the MSD is definately wired wrong the way it is there it would only be on while cranking as soon as it fired and you let go of the key it would shut off again . You need to check that solenoid , there are a couple variations . They will always have the 2 big terminals and they will always be the same an in and an out doesnt matter which is which . When you turn the key to the crank position there is a big copper washer in there that gets pulled up against those two big lugs to make a circuit . Now for the little post one is power for the coil in the relay thats what makes the big washer pull against the lugs . Heres what you need to check some of these ralays ( most ) get a ground for that coil in the relay through the fender mount flange some were isolated and got it through that other little post and on some that other little post makes contact with that big washer when it pulls in supplying 12 volts to that post for such things as the coil so its good hot spark and after it is not cranking the run wire goes through a ballast resistor or in fords case resistance wire to knock the voltage down to 6 or so . So 1st thing I would do is unhook those wires from the litle post , and remove the relay from the firewall so it isnt touching anything then take your jumper cables and touch one to each little post if it clicks and rolls over then the second post is a ground for the relay coil if it does nothing then try from the one little post to the mount if it clicks then the the second wire attached to the solenoid has power on it while cranking and if the wire is grounded you are creating a short which accounts for the wires getting hot . Try this test and get back to us . :D

#8 Seabronc

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Posted 21 June 2009 - 10:19 AM

Blade is correct, I forgot about the two small posts that have different functions depending on the part number. However, when there is a solenoid on the starter the battery (+) usually goes directly to the starter and the starter mounted solenoid pick goes to a post on the start relay. That post could be one that gets hot via an internal connection or from the main contact which is on a large post. If it is that style relay, then the connection of the two large cables would be OK and the small wire from the starter should go to the small post that becomes hot when the key is turned. Wiring that way, can be used as a safety to prevent shorting out the battery in the event that the large cable develops a rub through short. So in either case the MSD and the Choke heater should not be connected here.
Fred

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Broncos are MPVs not SUVs

Engines run on fuel, or steam

Motors run on electricity, hydraulic fluid, vacuum, or air


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#9 tmrltree

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Posted 02 July 2009 - 05:49 PM

Thanks for all the advice. I just returned from a short trip, and will get started with the trial and error of all these post in the morning. Starting with removing those plugs, and attempting a hand crank.

If if it turns, I'll continue on with all the other recommend pointers. Hopefully all goes well, and I can eventually replace the starter with the correct one, and attempt to figure out the wiring with the diagram in my Haynes manual. Will post updates as I go through all these steps.

#10 tmrltree

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Posted 03 July 2009 - 10:59 AM

So, was able to get out there and work a little. Got some good, and bad news:

First thing I did was some research at some auto part stores and a few mechanics at a off road shop near near. The starter on that motor is correct, for that motor. This was stated by more then one source.

While at the auto parts store I replaced my old battery. I then took the small wire running to the top of the starter, and touched it to the positive of the battery. I got a click, click, each time I touched it to the positive terminal. I did this just to see if anything would happen, wasn't expecting it to fire up.

I then moved onto taking out all the spark plugs, and turning the motor by hand. Good news is the motor turned both ways rather easily. Here is the bad news. When I removed 4 of the 8 spark plugs, liquid that looked like water, but smelled like gas gushed out. With this, there was a greenish sludge around the spark plug holes. As I turned the motor both ways, more and more of this "water" came out. I continued to rotate each direction until no more came out.

I plan to let the area under the vehicle dry a bit before I crawl under there to begin draining all the liquids, starting with the oil. Not sure where to go from here, I still need to figure out the wiring. I think I will look into seeing how I can wire this vehicle with the bare minimum, and how exactly to wire that starter.

#11 Little Giant

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Posted 14 July 2009 - 11:13 AM

Sorry there is no pics it did not copy but here is were you need to look.

I just bought a painless wiring kit 10102 but go to the painless website

to the Technical section and click on manuals i clicked on the 10102 and

under section 8 it has pics of what it should look like. I hope this helps.



http://www.painlessp...90501Manual.pdf





8 FORD - SPECIFIC CIRCUIT CONNECTIONS
8.1 Ford Alternator. See Figure 8-1.
Note: Your Alternator may not appear exactly as represented in Figure 8-1. however the circuits are
wired the same manor..
8.1.1 Connect ENGINE SECTION wire #915 (red) to the Alternator Output lug (Bat). Connect ENGINE
SECTION wire #914 (wht) to the Voltage Regulator (l) terminal.
CAUTION: IF USING AN ALTERNATOR WITH AN OUTPUT LARGER THAN 65 AMPS, YOU
WILL ALSO NEED TO USE JUMPER WIRE #960 (RED), INCLUDED IN BOX. THE WIRE END WITH
THE RING TERMINAL AND RUBBER BOOT WILL CONNECT TO THE ALTERNATOR OUTPUT LUG.
ROUTE THE OTHER END TO THE STARTER RELAY. CUT THE WIRE AND CRIMP ON A RING
TERMINAL. INSTALL ON RELAY TERMINAL WITH CABLE COMING FROM BATTERY. SEE FIGURE
8-1B.
8.1.2 Connect a 14-gauge jumper from the Voltage Regulator A terminal to the Alternator Output lug
(Bat).
10
TURN SIGNAL SECTION
GM Designation Painless Painless Turn Signal
Color Wire No. Color Connector
Blk Horn 953 Blk G
Lt.Blu LF Turn Signal 926 Lt.Blu H
Dk.Blu RF Turn Signal 925 Dk.Blu J
Brn Hazard Flasher 951 Brn K
Pur Turn Flasher 952 Pur L
Ylw LR Turn Signal 949 Ylw M
Grn RR Turn Signal 948 Grn N
Wht Stop Lamp Switch 918 Wht P
IGNITION SWITCH SECTION Painless Painless
Wire No. Color
Pur/Wht Ignition Start 919 Pur
Pnk Ignition Coil 931 Pnk
Brn Accessory Fuse Panel 932 Brn
Orn Ignition Switched Fuse Panel 933 Orn
Red* Battery B+ 934 Red
Red* Battery B+ 934 Red
* See note 8 on page 28
8.1.3 Connect a 14-gauge wire from the Voltage Regulator S terminal to the Alternator Stator (S)
terminal. Connect a 14-gauge wire from the Voltage Regulator F terminal to the Alternator Field (F)
terminal.
8.1.4 The Alternator case must be clean, and free from corrosion where it contacts the block. An
additional connection, form the ground stud on the rear of the alternator to the engine ground
may be needed
8.1.5 An alternate (and less-used) method is to omit the Alternator Stator wire, install a 14-gauge
jumper across Voltage Regulator terminals A & S, and connect wire #914 to either the A or S
terminal of the Voltage Regulator. The FIELD wire and wire #915 are connected as above. Do NOT
install a jumper as in Paragraph 8.1.2. The Voltage Regulator Ignition (l) terminal is not
connected. Install ground wires as in Paragraph 8.1.4. This alternate configuration is illustrated
in dashed lines in Figure 8-1A.
NOTE: The base of the Voltage Regulator MUST be grounded in order for it to function correctly.
Figure 8-1A Ford Alternator (2 configurations) Figure 8-1B High Output Wire
Figure 8-1C Ford 2G Alternator
8.1.6 Connect ENGINE SECTION wire #915 RED to both wires as noted in Figure 8-1C.
8.1.7 Connect ENGINE SECTION wire #914 WHT to the Light Green/Red stripe wire as noted in Figure
8-1C.
11
Figure 8-1D Ford 3G ALternator
8.1.8 Connect ENGINE SECTION wires #915 Red to charge post of alternator, #914 wht to the
I terminal of the regulator, and # 916 to the B+ side of the solenoid. You will have to run a
separate wire (not provided), from the A terminal of the regulator to either the charge post at
back of the alternator, or to the B+ side of the solenoid.
NOTE: When using a 3G alternator, a large (6 Ga Min.) auxiliary charge wire MUST be run as
Shown in Figure 8-1D. This wire is in addition to the #s 915 and 916. While not shown in
The above illustration, an inline fuse of AT LEAST 135 amps. Is strongly recommended.
8.2 Ford Ignition (Start/Run) System. See Figure 8-2.
Note: If you are going to install an ammeter, see Section 10.3 first.
Note: Original ignition module wire should be retained if possible. Connectors for the module are no
longer serviced.
8.2.1 With crimping tool, attach the Maxi Fuse (Figure 7-3) onto end of ENGINE SECTION (single) 10
ga. wire #916 (red) AFTER having routed wire (with or without ammeter) from the Fuse Panel to
the Starter Relay. This serves as a fuse to protect the entire harness. DO NOT OMIT IT!
8.2.2 Connect wire #916 - with Maxi Fuse installed - to the Starter Relay Battery terminal. This is the
same lug that the large red cable from the battery is normally connected to.
8.2.3 Connect ENGINE SECTION A wire #919 (pur) to the Starter Relay Start (S) terminal.
8.2.4 If you are using the Ballast Resistor, mount it away from other wiring or hoses. The Ballast Resistor
gets very hot during operation. Connect ENGINE SECTION A wire #920 (pnk) to one end of the
Ballast Resistor. Connect the other end of the Ballast Resistor to the Ignition Coil B+ terminal with
14-gauge wire (you may have enough pink wire left over to accomplish this). If you are using a
Ballast Resistor, connect wire #920 directly to the Ignition Coil B+ terminal.
Note: The Ballast Resistor has been deleted from this kit due to lack of consumer usage. If one is needed
in your application, please call Painless Performance at 800-423-9696 for assistance.
8.2.5 The Ignition Coil NEGATIVE (-) terminal is connected to the Distributor. Also connect ENGINE
SECTION A wire #923 (pur/wht) to the Ignition Coil NEGATIVE (-) terminal. This is the tachometer
source. If you are not using a tachometer, insulate and stow wire #923.
12
8.2.6 Connect a 14-gauge wire from the Starter Relay Ignition (l) terminal to the ignition coil side of the
Ballast Resistor. This wire serves as a ballast resistor BYPASS during engine starting. If you are not
using a ballast resistor, leave the Starter Relay Ignition (l) terminal unconnected and do not
connect the bypass wire.
8.2.7 Be sure the large, red battery cable is connected from the other side of the Starter Relay to the
Starter Motor.
Figure 8-2 Ford Ignition (Start/Run) System
Figure 8.3 Motorcraft Electronic Ignition System
13



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