[Jimmy Neutron]

I have cylinder #1 at TDC, or very close to it. (There are no timing marks anywhere)
According to the old distributor, the rotor is pointing where it should for #1 full compression stroke.

The new distributor will not fully seat into its location!
It hovers about 1/2 inch from being fully seated.

1. The gears are at least somewhat meshing. I can bump the starter and the rotor spins.
2. Now the old distributor will not even fall into place.
3. I have read elsewhere that the oil pump shaft could be too long??
(But that does not explain the old one not dropping in.)
4. I do not remember the oil pump shaft wiggling all over the place -could it be broken?

What else could it be that I am not noticing!?!?!

[Bully Bob]

One way is to "walk" the rotor around.., as in turning slowly as you pull up on the dizzy enough to clear the gear.., & let it drop down between gears. At some point it will "drop" completely down...!
However., it may not be in the timed position.
Ea. time you walk it around., it will drop in a different position. Eventually, it will drop where you need it.

Good luck.,
B

This post has been edited by Bully Bob: 01 May 2009 - 08:12 PM

[BLADE262US]

If it is a 71 302 and nobody has messed with it , it will have the longer oil pump drive shaft the newer 302 roller motors have a shorter drive shaft and a longer distributor stem just for the purpose of not letting you install it the drive gear is a different material and will destroy the cam drive gear . The part number of the distributor you should have is a 8352 so Im guessing you got a little excited typing . If you have a 8456 you will experience exactly what you are now . Bring number one cylinder up on TDC compression stroke then install the distributor with the rotor starting about one plug wire terminal more to the right than you want that way when the distributor seats it will rotate back to the exact position you want . Once you get ot started in this position you can take a breaker bar with a 15/16 socket and roll the motor back and forth by the balancer bolt this should get the pump drive to line up . If you dont have the part number stated I would stop and do some checking on what happened there .

[Jimmy Neutron]

This is what I have:
http://store.summitr...mp;autoview=sku
My fingers must have number dyslexia!

I will attempt to drop it in later again today using the suggested methods.

Thanks for the input!

I do still have one question:
Is the oil pump shaft supposed to flop around? Could that be what is holding the dizzy up?

[Bully Bob]

"........oil pump shaft supposed to flop around?"
Could you be more specific....?

[BLADE262US]

Yes that drive shaft is sloppy in the block hole it centers in the drive end of the distributor .

[Yardape]

Are you letting gravity try to drop it into place? Put a small amount of down pressure on it as you bump it over. Using all the steps that Blade suggested.

[Jimmy Neutron]

This is what I have done:

1. Rocking the crank slightly back and forth with moderate downpressure on the distributor.
2. Rocking the crank more than slightly back and forth with moderate downpressure on the distributor.
3. Broke down the old dizzy to gain a oil pump prime shaft.
4. Attempted to put my new oil pump primer into place.
-It would not slip in! I had to use emery cloth and thin it down.
Fine emery cloth for less than 5 seconds spinning on a drill with dying batteries and it slipped in.

What I mean by "oil pump shaft flop" is that it does not stay centered. As a matter of fact, read #5...

5. Attempted to eliminate possibilites; tried to move around oil pump shaft with magnet on a stick. Ended up lifting oil pump shaft 1.5-2" before caught on somthing and dropped back into a higher position than it was before.
6. Wiggled shaft back into original position.
7. Lifted slightly on dizzy and rotated rotor to feel the gears. Drops down to same location.


It feels like the gear is ingaged -at least partially.
I checked around the base -it is not hitting anywhere on the intake.

[Jimmy Neutron]

Please see pictures.

Attached thumbnail(s)

• 

Attached File(s)

•  Oil_Pump_Shaft.bmp (262.29K)
  Number of downloads: 48

[Bully Bob]

I've done this dozens of times W/O messing with the crank.

"7. Lifted slightly on dizzy and rotated rotor to feel the gears. Drops down to same location."
This has to be done several times...there's TWO spots it will drop-in 180deg. fr. ea. other.
You may have to walk it around 2-3 times.

"It feels like the gear is ingaged -at least partially."
It is.... "partically"

Having said that., I've always started with the pump shaft already installed into the bottom of the dizzy. (has to be in tight so it doesn't slip out.) Don't want it sliding out into the pan or it's pan removal time.

[Jimmy Neutron]

Please forgive my ignorance-
The oil pump shaft should slip out??

[Bully Bob]

I've NOT had one stay in the eng. when I remove the dizzy.
Doesn't mean that yours is the same..
I would assume (with the shaft already in place in the oil pump) the shaft would slide on up into the dizzy due to the tapered hole on the bottom.

BTW if you try walking it around., & it drops in position...but not in the timed spot....pull it up & keep going., the drop spot will change ea. time around.

[BLADE262US]

The shaft should not come out of the motor unless someone has been into it and didnt replace the keeper . On the oil pump drive shaft there is an umbrella shaped metal clip that slides over the shaft when inserted up in the block then the oil pump goes on this keeper makes sure you dont end up with the pulling the pan senario . The drive shaft is a hex so theres 5 positions it will slip in you should not have to sand anything so there is a problem somewhere . The 302 is a 1/4 hex and a 351W is a 5/16 hex so you should look at your stock distributor end and make sure someone didnt get really creative and put the 351W pump shaft and oil pump in there . Im not sure at this moment if the distributors are the same length but if they are that would explain the problem your having . Check the end of your old distributor for the hex size and get back to us

[Jimmy Neutron]

I will measure the old dizzy hex and report in the morning before church.

As far as I can tell with a tape measure, the lengths of both dizzy's match up. If I had a set of calipers, I could tell for sure.

This post has been edited by Jimmy Neutron: 02 May 2009 - 08:25 PM

[BUCKIN67]

Ok, I will try to help ya! First check the driveshaft size, stock ones are puny 1/4 in and it could have bee upgraded to the 351 W eng tha uses a 5/16 shaft, these will not swap and it would keep the dist from engaging in the eng completely. the shaft is loose in the block and only held in by the pump and a stop at the top of it. If you hold the dist in and spin the eng over and it does not drop you may have different sized shafts for the oil pump, check this out by looking at the one you removed and the one your installing, simple enough. to get it on TDC you can have a friend help you, remove #1 plug and take and bump the eng till compression comes out of theplug hold, then take a small screwdrivewr and touch the piston through the plug hole and have your friend turn the eng by hand and whent you feel the piston change directions STOP!! this is going to be pretty much TDC. I hope this can help ya!!! GOD BLESS!!!!!

[Jimmy Neutron]

I measured the hex on the old dizzy.
As far as I can tell it is 1/4".

I will read up on the other posts when I get back this afternoon.

Thanks for all the assistance!!

[Bully Bob]

My bad...!!
I've done this so much.., I must have been working with my sub-conscience (& thinking 'bout girls.!)
Anyway., I just pulled mine & the shaft is, in fact, locked in place, in the oil pump.
(The others I've done must have been modified i.e. no keeper. I did fish one shaft out of an eng. W/O removing the pan.)
Obviously, the keeper makes more sense.

Sooooo.., all I can add is the shaft should be centered down in its hole., give or take a little movement. (like your "top" picture)
Are you sure it's completely down, & in place in the oil pump..??
I doubt it should be laying against the sidewall.

[Jimmy Neutron]

I guess my next step is to see if the oil pump shaft is wacked out of shape.
I say this because it is laying against the side wall of the cylinder it is in -even tho it feels as if it is engaged.
Is there a way to check for engagement?
Another thing I should mention... I was trying to get it running last summer (until I ran out of time and money); I did have it idling and it seemed to heat up really quickly. I wonder if the shaft was broken then?? I checked the coolant at that time, and it did seem to be as full as it should be...
I wish I could remember exactly how long it was running and a way to tell the temp by other than the feel of my hand, but I am sure it was running less than 3-5 minutes and it was hot enough to burn me at the heads.

This is the first time I have messed with an oil pump! In all the other engines I have built with my dad, he was the one to install such a critical component.

The questions I have are:

1. Should I upgrade the oil pump?
a. High Volume or High Pressure?
b. (I may regret asking this, I do not want to start a war!!) What brand?

Just to let you know, I do plan on keeping this motor pretty much stock.
But, for instance; If the cylinders need to be cleaned up, I might as well bore it over. If the crank breaks, I might as well stroke it. In other words, If something needs to be fixed or replaced, it is my theory that if it broke the first time, it will break again -might as well upgrade. I would like to rollerize the top end at some point, along with installing more effecient heads. (It takes Bosch 7950 spark plugs, so it must have a set of similar year mustang heads on it)

2. Is the only way to check on this shaft to pull the oil pan?

3. How hard is it and what all is involved with upgrading the size of the oil pump shaft?
a. Can I put a 351 oil pump in it (to gain a bigger shaft) and have the dizzy end machined down to the proper hex size for the dizzy I have?
b. Is it feasible to have the oil pump shaft drilled along with the dizzy to roll pinned it to the dizzy?



Thanks in advance for the information!!

This post has been edited by Jimmy Neutron: 03 May 2009 - 09:56 AM

[Jimmy Neutron]

I was off a bit as to how far the dizzy is dropping down.
Here is the modified picture:

Attached thumbnail(s)

• 

[Bully Bob]

"..Is there a way to check for engagement?"

Using a 1/4" socket drive & a long extension.....you should be able to turn the shaft with resistance...meaning it is in fact, driving the oil pump. Obviously, if no resistance., it's not engaged in the pump.

Having said that., again, be very careful you don't loose the socket down into the eng.
This task is usually done to "prime" the oiling on a new motor.., or one that's been sitting a while.
(there is an actual "tool" avail. for doing this., & they're driven by a drill motor)
You can "jam" the socket on the extension., or even weld it on an old set.

As for all the up-grades..., I would hold off..!
I think this is just a freaky problem that you can/will get past.

BTW., did you put grease on the "O" ring...? ... poss. it's just a very tight fit.
Try your old dizzy W/O the "O" ring.?

This post has been edited by Bully Bob: 03 May 2009 - 10:51 AM